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    GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

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    mmiddei

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    GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Sat May 30, 2015 2:32 pm

    Hey guys,
    I'm new to this forum (which has been incredibly helpful, thanks to all my fellow tone heads) and the GM 36 with FSM-432, I'll have both in a few days on 6/1/2015 from Guitar Center.

    Questions:
    Is anyone using an HD500X with the GM 36 as a MIDI controller?

    If so have you been able to program the expression pedals with min/max to control things like GM Gain, Delay volume, and other parameters, etc?

    I read many posts about FSM-432 exp pedal for volume going from 0 - dime'd with no other options, is this the case for other params too 0 - dime'd and no min/max options?

    Thanks in advance for any help with this...
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    namklak

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by namklak on Mon Jun 01, 2015 11:48 am

    I am using the HD500X as a MIDI controller for the GM36.  I have not attempted to do what you suggest.  When I have modeled in the past, I have had the expression pedal control the gain level of the modeled amp, but haven't tried it yet with the GM36.  The GM36 is fairly touch (level) sensitive, so just using the expression pedal as a volume pedal has worked pretty well.

    If you get this to work, please report back. It'd really cool if we could control more than one parameter. In practical applications, when I'm backing off the volume pedal, I'm not soloing - so I'd like to back off the gain and delay level.

    In general, I found the GM's built in effects work well enough for most of my 70's rock, so I do not use 4CM.  I use the HD500X for MIDI control (each ABCD patch maps automagically to a GM preset); and for volume, wah, noise gate, mid-focus EQ, Tube Buffer and Tube Screamer, and I have a patch cable across the HD's effects loop so the effects return effectively is a gain/overdrive effect.   I have the HD master at 12 o'clock, yielding about unity gain.

    I'm sure you've seen the HD500X blog MeAmBobbo http://foobazaar.com/podhd/toneGuide/.

    And here's what I came up with using this setup - see the vids marked vimeo.  The older ones I was using a carvin V3m head or the real old ones I was modeling with a GNX3000.
    http://mybluesky.co/photos-and-videos
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    mmiddei

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:44 pm

    Hey Bob,
    Thanks for your info on the HD500X, I watched your band videos, great stuff and must be a really fun gig to be playing!

    Have my GM for 1 week now and absolutely love it... I wanted to get back to you about the HD500X working very well for MIDI expression pedal control, I use the POD HD500X Edit software, on the Controller tab at the bottom you can program MIDI for every button and expression pedal on the HD500X, including min/max settings for Exp Pdl which you can't do with the H&K pedal which I also bought. I use expression pedal 2 on some patches to increase/decrease gain and on others for delay increase/decrease and this works pretty well.

    NOTE: In that bottom section of POD Edit software FOOTSWITCH/EXP dial can be turned to access every button and exp pedal, if you don't use the dial and rather use your mouse over the window that shows FS1 it doesn't hold your previous setting when you change to say FS2, if you use the dial all settings hold for previous buttons, must be a bug in HD Edit and I have the latest firmware too. Here's a video going over this same exact thing but he's using a Kemper and on the HD500 but not software. I followed his method and it works perfectly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSWX7_qOwgY .

    Question for you? I also tried using the HD500X in front of the amp just for things like compression, vol, wah, tube screammer, etc. with POD amp models off, global EQ off and tried all the different output options, the one that sounded most transparent to me was amp FX return. When I use the HD500X if front of the amp it seems to make the GM feel stiffer as opposed to when I'm using my regular stompbox pedals. That's the best way I can think to describe the sensation, it changes the tone a bit but not dramatically, however the GM sort of lost that spongier feel. Have you experienced this?

    Thanks a bunch,
    Mike

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    mmiddei

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:53 pm

    The expression pedals on the HD500X are working on the GM in case I wasn't clear on the last post, buttons 5-8 change patches on GM, 1-4 for stomps on the 500X, wah is also coming from the 500x and exp pdl 2 on the 500X is controlling gain on the GM with min max settings.
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    namklak

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by namklak on Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:20 pm

    Thanks for the band compliment, I lucked out getting into this band (it's who you know) and being a co-lead guitarist in an Allman Brothers tribute band means you are expected to play lead - a lot. Darn...

    I can't remember what mode i ended up with on the HD, I think I ended up with Studio/Direct - that seemed most neutral. But I found where you put the HD Master makes a big difference. I found it worked best if I set the HD Master at 12 o'clock, which for my non-overdrive patches was unity gain. I think achieving unity-gain (the HD is just as loud as when you plug your guitar directly into the GM) is a big deal. I started with the HD Master cranked - that delivered some nice saturation tones, but I lost some of the touch sensitivity.
    But yes the HD seems to add a little natural compression or something. I have HD Input2 set to Variax, which I believe already leaves my guitar at -6dB, point being maybe a lower signal level thru the HD will yield more headroom. Probably a discussion for the Line6 forum I suppose.

    I'm sure purists will say going thru a digital processor first is "ruining" the tone of this great analog tube amp. First, no one has seen a schematic and we don't know if there are semiconductors in the signal path. Second, my band never has to supply/haul a PA - the downside of that is I'm going thru questionable PA equipment and board monkeys, so by the time the user/listener (probably drinking alcohol and since I'm in CO, stoned) hears it, the least of my concerns is my digital effects box.
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    mmiddei

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Thu Jun 11, 2015 8:14 pm

    Does anyone know how to get the HD500x tap footswitch to work with the tap tempo on the GM, i just can't get this to work. i would love to use the HD500x as a before amp effects and a MIDI controller. The H&K pedal has Tap tempo but I don't want to have to use both pedals... any help is greatly appreciated...
    Mike
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    bordonbert

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by bordonbert on Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:05 pm

    I'm sure purists will say going thru a digital processor first is "ruining" the tone of this great analog tube amp.
    I'm sure they will too, but they'll be talking through their shirt tails as usual!  Those same people will positively salivate about the merits of an old pressed cardboard PCB with a couple of Shockley's own original germanium transistors and diodes, hooked together with a handful of pressed soot resistors, and capacitors made from medieval beeswax candles, all designed by a guy who had found out about "the new solid state" only a month before.  I'm with you in your spot on pragmatic assessment of the real life conditions you play under.  And I agree with you that H&K will have some solid state circuitry in their signal path.  And good luck to them, it's cheaper to produce,  it measures better, is easier to design, and at the end of the day it sounds just as great to me!

    (Did I bore you with "Blind A/B listening tests show....."? I'm being very restrained today! Laughing  Razz )
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    namklak

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by namklak on Fri Jun 12, 2015 1:26 pm

    +1 on knowing how to do tap with something other than the H&K pedal. I must admit I haven't tried, but would use it.
    +1 to bordonbert's last post.

    normula1

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by normula1 on Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:54 am

    It seems to me that you can't do a tap tempo via direct MIDI input unless you have a method for generating a delay time by holding down a footswitch and then sending that delay time as a value on CC controller 4

    I've done it via an expression pedal just to prove the point, but that's not really useful


    Cheers,

    Jeff
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    mmiddei

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:57 am

    Hey Jeff,
    What I don't understand is that the H & K FSM-432 MIDI foot controller does have a tap tempo footswitch so they are doing this via MIDI. Very disappointing that it's this difficult to have such a common function readily available for any MIDI foot controller!
    Appreciate the info Jeff...
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    mmiddei

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:16 am

    Hey guys,
    I've had my GM 36 for about 6 weeks now and have been experimenting with a few ways to configure the GM and my Line 6 HD500X; my focus was to produce the most transparent GM amp tone possible, as well as have the most robust MIDI controllability...

    I really do love the GM’s tonal capability but H & K did leave a lot to be desired when it comes to MIDI controllability, especially on the continuous controller side of things with no min/max options for expression pedals and no Tap Tempo, that is unless you own either the H & K FSM-432 pedal or the Behringer FCB-1010 you’re out of luck for Tap Tempo control.  Line 6 tech support definitely confirmed that Tap Tempo on the HD will not control the GM’s delay tempo; that said here's what I found.

    The 4 Cable Method – in my humble opinion is by far the best tonal option I’ve come up with other than plugging directly into the amp...  I'm hearing virtually no tonal degradation at all using 4 CM; however the HD's settings are very specific to get this transparent of a result with 4 CM.

    Here are the HD500X settings I came up with for the 4CM:
    Guitar Input Switch – set to “-pad”
    ¼” Output Switch – set to “Line”
    Output Mode – set to “Studio Direct”
    Effect Loop – set to “On for every patch”
    Global EQ – set to “Off”
    **Also, Effect loops on both devices must be on for every patch to use the GM’s preamp section...

    Guitar – HD500X input
    HD500X ¼” main left output – GM effects return
    HD500X effects send – GM guitar input
    GM effects send – HD500X effect return

    (optional) HD500X Foot Switch Mode – set this to “FS 5-8” so all 8 foot switch’s function as Stomp Boxes and can also be used to turn things on and off in the GM as well as the HD’s effects per patch.  To change patches I use the “Up/Down” bank switch’s then 1, 2, 3, or 4 on the HD 500X as a preset choice which changes both devices simultaneously.  For the most part these 2 devices work well together…

    I also own the FSM-432 and have tried using both pedals for MIDI control, it just doesn’t work correctly, it’s one or the other, they just don’t play well together for MIDI control plugging one into the other.  The only way this might work would be to add a MIDI merge box so the devices would be independent of one another to control the GM.

    Lately I’ve been using the FSM to do all MIDI amp control and the HD in 4 Cable Method for pre and post effects like compressors, drive pedals, Wah, delays, etc.  I also purchased 2 of the Yamaha FC-7 expression pedals which plug into control 1 and 2 in the FSM-432, 1 controls Gain up/down, and 2 controls Delay Level up/down.  It’s working really well but a bit more to carry now…

    Tap Tempo – anytime Tap Tempo is needed I use the HD delay’s and leave the GM’s delay off which is most of the time, however I do also kick the GM’s delay (usually set between 200 and 400ms per patch) on for solos over top the HD’s delay which adds a bit more dimension and ambiance.  This actually works really well and I don’t notice any out of time delay’s doing this.  It seems as though because the HD’s delay is first in line, and is tapped in time with the song tempo the GM’s delay follows the HD in time, pretty cool effect too.
    That’s it for now but I will post more after trying the MIDI merge box which I intend to purchase…
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    slockrem

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by slockrem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 2:11 pm

    New owner here, and could not be happier so far. I've seen some great things in here so far! I've had the GM for about a week now, and have just been playing direct and getting a feel for it.....first tube amp too btw. I am coming from strictly using my HD500 direct to PA and using a FRFR monitor. I opted not to get the H&K controller for now just to see how things would go integrating the HD500 (probably 4cm) for midi control. Hopefully in the next week or so I'll get a chance to sit down and get things set up.



    mmiddei wrote:Hey guys,
    I've had my GM 36 for about 6 weeks now and have been experimenting with a few ways to configure the GM and my Line 6 HD500X; my focus was to produce the most transparent GM amp tone possible, as well as have the most robust MIDI controllability...

    I really do love the GM’s tonal capability but H & K did leave a lot to be desired when it comes to MIDI controllability, especially on the continuous controller side of things with no min/max options for expression pedals and no Tap Tempo, that is unless you own either the H & K FSM-432 pedal or the Behringer FCB-1010 you’re out of luck for Tap Tempo control.  Line 6 tech support definitely confirmed that Tap Tempo on the HD will not control the GM’s delay tempo; that said here's what I found.

    The 4 Cable Method – in my humble opinion is by far the best tonal option I’ve come up with other than plugging directly into the amp...  I'm hearing virtually no tonal degradation at all using 4 CM; however the HD's settings are very specific to get this transparent of a result with 4 CM.

    Here are the HD500X settings I came up with for the 4CM:
    Guitar Input Switch – set to “-pad”
    ¼” Output Switch – set to “Line”
    Output Mode – set to “Studio Direct”
    Effect Loop – set to “On for every patch”
    Global EQ – set to “Off”
    **Also, Effect loops on both devices must be on for every patch to use the GM’s preamp section...

    Guitar – HD500X input
    HD500X ¼” main left output – GM effects return
    HD500X effects send – GM guitar input
    GM effects send – HD500X effect return

    (optional) HD500X Foot Switch Mode – set this to “FS 5-8” so all 8 foot switch’s function as Stomp Boxes and can also be used to turn things on and off in the GM as well as the HD’s effects per patch.  To change patches I use the “Up/Down” bank switch’s then 1, 2, 3, or 4 on the HD 500X as a preset choice which changes both devices simultaneously.  For the most part these 2 devices work well together…

    I also own the FSM-432 and have tried using both pedals for MIDI control, it just doesn’t work correctly, it’s one or the other, they just don’t play well together for MIDI control plugging one into the other.  The only way this might work would be to add a MIDI merge box so the devices would be independent of one another to control the GM.

    Lately I’ve been using the FSM to do all MIDI amp control and the HD in 4 Cable Method for pre and post effects like compressors, drive pedals, Wah, delays, etc.  I also purchased 2 of the Yamaha FC-7 expression pedals which plug into control 1 and 2 in the FSM-432, 1 controls Gain up/down, and 2 controls Delay Level up/down.  It’s working really well but a bit more to carry now…

    Tap Tempo – anytime Tap Tempo is needed I use the HD delay’s and leave the GM’s delay off which is most of the time, however I do also kick the GM’s delay (usually set between 200 and 400ms per patch) on for solos over top the HD’s delay which adds a bit more dimension and ambiance.  This actually works really well and I don’t notice any out of time delay’s doing this.  It seems as though because the HD’s delay is first in line, and is tapped in time with the song tempo the GM’s delay follows the HD in time, pretty cool effect too.
    That’s it for now but I will post more after trying the MIDI merge box which I intend to purchase…

    Are you finding that you have to boost the fx loop? I've seen a lot on the Line 6 forums about a db loss there depending on if you set up the HD for Guitar/same or Guitar/mic, aux, etc. I'm new to the 4cm, but as far a flexibility, I'd like to start there. I'm using a JTV-59 quite a bit these days, so that may take some experimenting as well
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    mmiddei

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by mmiddei on Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:02 pm

    Hi slockrem,
    Welcome and congratulations on the GM 36 purchase...
    I was using an HD500X and didn't have any db loss using 4CM with my GM 36, the master volume on the HD500 will allow you to find the unity gain setting on the GM, here's how I did this.

    After you have 4CM connected, play a constant note while turning on/off the Loop button on the GM 36 so you can hear any volume difference, then simply adjust the Master volume on the HD500 until there's no volume difference when the GM Loop button is on or off. That's it...

    Please let me know if this helped, and enjoy your GM 36 brother, it's an excellent tone machine! ...
    Mike
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    slockrem

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by slockrem on Thu Feb 11, 2016 8:30 pm

    mmiddei wrote:Hi slockrem,
    Welcome and congratulations on the GM 36 purchase...
    I was using an HD500X and didn't have any db loss using 4CM with my GM 36, the master volume on the HD500 will allow you to find the unity gain setting on the GM, here's how I did this.

    After you have 4CM connected, play a constant note while turning on/off the Loop button on the GM 36 so you can hear any volume difference, then simply adjust the Master volume on the HD500 until there's no volume difference when the GM Loop button is on or off.  That's it...

    Please let me know if this helped, and enjoy your GM 36 brother, it's an excellent tone machine! ...
    Mike

    Nice! I'll let you know, looking forward to getting everything going. Thanks for the tips, much appreciated!

    Steve
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    namklak

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by namklak on Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:29 am

    Stockrem, did you also try this?

    namklak wrote:I have HD Input2 set to Variax, which I believe already leaves my guitar at -6dB, point being maybe a lower signal level thru the HD will yield more headroom.  Probably a discussion for the Line6 forum I suppose.
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    slockrem

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    Re: GM 36 and Line 6 HD500X as MIDI controller

    Post by slockrem on Mon Feb 15, 2016 8:54 pm

    namklak wrote:Stockrem, did you also try this?

    namklak wrote:I have HD Input2 set to Variax, which I believe already leaves my guitar at -6dB, point being maybe a lower signal level thru the HD will yield more headroom.  Probably a discussion for the Line6 forum I suppose.


    I saw your name come up on one of the threads I was looking at today of on the Line 6 forums.  Using some of those ideas, I started working on this today.  What I am finding is that if I have it set for input 1 guitar, input 2 variax, aux etc. and then put the FX block (default values) after the mixer (path A 100% L and about +10-12, path B muted) I am pretty close to unity...by ear.  The Fx loop is set to "stomp" and 1/4" out is set to "line". I'll have to get it in to my DAW to get a bit more precise.  This is with no other effects in the path and the pod master vol at 100%.  Thanks for the heads up!  Just when you think you've read all the threads, you find one more cheers


    Last edited by slockrem on Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added detail)

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