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    WMI question

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    jimbo1

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    WMI question

    Post by jimbo1 on Mon May 22, 2017 4:03 am

    Hallo everybody

    First message here from Italy so sorry in advance about my poor English (and please remember this when answering :-))
    Just bought a pre-owned GM 36 + FSM 432; at the moment no midi interface but I think it’s important to get the best from this amp, don’t you?
    My goal is to use the android app (no Apple) + editor for PC ( no Apple).
    Will I need mandatory WMI interface for both systems? Will it work with Android + PC? Is there something 3rd part cheaper option that will work with both systems?
    Second question: why H&K says there are 128 preset and the list downloadable contains only 68?

    Thanks everybody for any suggestions.
    Paolo
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    bordonbert

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by bordonbert on Mon May 22, 2017 6:47 am

    Ciao Paolo, good to have someone from Italy on the forum.  Don't worry about your English, I'm from the very North East of England so my own isn't too good at times. clown Anyway, it has to be at least as good as some of our American members! Razz (note the smiley guys!)

    Regarding MIDI interfaces, make sure to get one that actually works with the apps and the gear!  There are many cheaper ones on sale, (Chinese usually), which do not meet the spec for this job.  They are perfectly good in less demanding roles but the app requires your interface to successfully support a messaging system called Sysex, (System Exclusive).  This allows us to pass message packets with non MIDI standard amounts of data in them so it can require bigger buffers in the devices and different software to handle them.  Those cheap Chinese interfaces seem to not have that so cannot handle the message lengths we want.  I know to my own cost!  Most better quality interfaces will be fine but the best way to be sure of that when you buy an interface is to either look for 'Sysex' in the spec or to ask here first and someone may have experience of whether the device will work or not.  Despite some of the advice which is usually given by people at these points telling you to get "the best on the market like mine", you do not need to spend large amounts of money to get a super high spec device, just one that will reliably do this single job which isn't very demanding at all.

    Another requirement to note is that you can only use it with an Android tablet which supports USB-Host mode, and you must use an On-The-Go cable.  The cable is very cheap and usually available on ebay or in the regular kit shops.  Externally it looks just like any other USB cable so make sure to label it clearly when you get one.

    There are two versions of the app.  As you are not an iPad user ( cheers ) and want to use it on a PC or laptop do you mean under Windows?  If so you will need to get Fredo's version here: Ctrlr.org Download Page.  If you want the Android version for non-Apple mobile devices you can get it from the Google Play Store.  There is a free and paid for version there but I can't see any difference between them as the versions seem to be listed as exactly the same!

    I think that the answer to the number of presets point is simply that H&K ran out of ideas at that point!  Despite the ultimate flexibility of the amp, there is a limited number of sensibly unique combinations you can come up with.  The idea of having 128 presets is an easy number for the programming side and it allows 32 banks of 4.  That allows you to define each bank to suit a track in a setlist with 4 different voices to use within the track.  That of course means some pretty standard voices will be duplicated within the banks for different tracks but that is fine as you have so many.  You don't want to be jumping up and down between 5 or 6 banks of 20 or 24 patches to find the right ones in the middle of a number.  In truth, most people eventually come down to a handful of regular voices and a few specialist ones, and some don't even use the preset functionality at all, they stick in Stompbox mode and do things by hand.
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    jimbo1

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by jimbo1 on Tue May 23, 2017 11:38 am

    Hallo Bordonbert
    Thanks for answering

    So the original WMI is ok for Android tablet?
    And could also be used with a PC with wi-fi?

    Have a nice day
    Paolo
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    bordonbert

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by bordonbert on Wed May 24, 2017 5:49 am

    Sorry Paolo, I mistook the main point of your post.  As you had the FSM432 I just assumed you were going to deal with the whole issue via cable.  As an engineer I can tell you that the H&K WMI is very very expensive for what it does (€168 from Thomann)!  I did look into getting something myself like this and even spoke to Thomann's technical support about the possibility of using an alternative in the Yamaha MD-BT01 (€40 from Thomann).  This was their reply:
    Thomann Support: wrote:Hello,

    thanks for the request.

    Yes, the Yamaha MD-BT01 would be a solution like the device as follows: https://www.thomann.de/de/kawai_quicco_sound_mi1.htm?ref=search_rslt_wireless+midi_383488_3

    But, I've never tried this in combination with the H&K Amp.

    Kind Regards

    Marc
    Studio – Synthesizer – Computer department
    I gave up chasing it as I am really not at all unhappy with keeping things cabled.  Reliability and simplicity are the first things I want.  I also concede that it would be difficult to connect both the GM36 and FSM432 with most other basic type MIDI network devices, you would seem to be missing a socket for the FSM432.  But the price of the other units with the same network capability just shows how H&K will put up their prices for a device which "matches" their amp perfectly.  I don't doubt it is a decent device, (I have a high regard for H&K's engineering if not always for their design choices), but at that price?

    I know there will be others who will be happy to say just pay the money and get the overpriced H&K unit, but I always think that is the way to constantly drive prices up and up in our field when they are not justified.  If you allow manufacturers to ramp up their prices by just keeping on buying without complaint they will never stop.  Just look at the ridiculous prices paid for the simplest of "boutique" pedals nowadays.  They have no more expensive parts in them than a plain old Behringer and the circuits are mostly laughably standard but they have the "cachet" of having been "touched by a guru".  Well I've seen the circuitry of too many of those expensive Tubescreamers and I can tell you they are nothing special at all.  So in my world, what price gurus?

    Anyway, what you are looking for is a unit which can just create a very simple network connection which your tablet can connect up to and there are many of those around.  The data being passed is not at all demanding, it's just a few bytes when you make a change and probably a tiny polling content every few seconds in the meantime.  The only complication is the connection of the FSM432 into the GM36/Interface connections.  My advice would be shop around first and try to find other units to compare with, your wallet will thank you if you find one.

    Any other guys out there had experience with alternatives to the WMI-1, (or are you all in the Croesus mould with so much money you don't think about it Wink )?
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    bordonbert

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by bordonbert on Wed May 24, 2017 6:20 am

    H&K FSM432 Manual wrote:The "MIDI In" of the MFS-432 MK III is necessary for the use of GrandMeister 36 in combination with the GrandMeister iPad™ app and a MIDI interface. Connect the MIDI In of your FSM-432 with the MIDI output of the interface and the MIDI Out of the FSM-432 with the amp’s MIDI input. The amp’s MIDI output should be connected with the interface’s MIDI input. Learn more about this feature in the manual of the GrandMeister iPad™ app. You can also use the MIDI In to connect other MIDI devices that can send program changes. In this case, the FSM-432 serves as a true MIDI merger forwarding the MIDI information from MIDI In to MIDI Out.
    Now here is a thought, just as H&K have described but with a standard MIDI network device like the ones in my last post rather than the WMI-1.  Connect the FSM432 MIDI Out to the GM36 MIDI In as normal with a 7 pin cable for remote powering the pedal. Connect the FSM432 MIDI In to the Network Interface MIDI Out with a 5 pin male/female extender cable which will act as H&K describe as a through connection to the amp.  Connect the GM36 MIDI Out to the Network Interface MIDI In.

    The only difference is that you need an additional male/female 5 pin extender type cable which is cheap as chips.  Any reason why that wouldn't work anyone?
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    jimbo1

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by jimbo1 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:00 am

    Bordonbeart

    You are right and focused the question - my english is bad and I'm not too technical  Crying or Very sad

    I found a 2° hand WMI for about 90€:

    Can I use with Android tablet? Using this app: http://hughes-and-kettner.com/grandmeister-deluxe-40-android-app-available-now/  YES  -  NO

    Can I use with laptop Windows pc with integrated wireless? Using this program: http://hughes-and-kettner.com/grandmeister-deluxe-40-desktop-editor-for-windows-and-mac-out-now/ YES  -  NO

    Many thanks and sorry for disturb

    Paolo
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    bordonbert

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by bordonbert on Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:15 am

    Looks to me as though the Android app is the right one.

    Looks to me as though the Windows app is the right one.

    Make sure to try the FREE version of each first before you decide to buy the premium. If the Free version works correctly then the premium will too and you will have risked no money.

    Being honest, I do not use a WMI myself, I prefer the reliability of simple cables. I understand that the H&K WMI-1 should simply set up its own network and the tablet/PC device should be able to pick this up and offer it as an option in its network settings. Once you select that as your network choice everything else should be automatic.
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    Teo

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by Teo on Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:11 am

    jimbo1 wrote:Hallo everybody

    First message here from Italy so sorry in advance about my poor English (and please remember this when answering :-))
    Just bought a pre-owned GM 36 + FSM 432; at the moment no midi interface but I think it’s important to get the best from this amp, don’t you?
    My goal is to use the android app (no Apple) + editor for PC ( no Apple).
    Will I need mandatory WMI interface for both systems? Will it work with Android + PC? Is there something 3rd part cheaper option that will work with both systems?
    Second question: why H&K says there are 128 preset and the list downloadable contains only 68?

    Thanks everybody for any suggestions.
    Paolo

    Ciao Paolo,
    ho comprato da poco la WMI interface, da usare anche io con GM36 e pedaliera midi H&K.

    Devo dire che uso il tutto in ambiente Mac (quindi iOs) e non saprei aiutarti (anche perchè devo ancora cablare e provare il tutto).

    Ad ogni modo, in bocca al lupo!

    Smile
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    Teo

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by Teo on Mon Jun 12, 2017 10:12 am

    bordonbert wrote:Ciao Paolo, good to have someone from Italy on the forum.


    Actually, there's an new one from Italy Razz
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    bordonbert

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by bordonbert on Tue Jun 13, 2017 4:17 am

    Wow you Italian guys can sneak up on us like Ghurkas! Embarassed Sorry Teo, your Italian style didn't register with my British lack of it. Very Happy The Italian delegation is hereby recognised and registered. cheers
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    Teo

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by Teo on Tue Jun 13, 2017 5:36 am

    bordonbert wrote:Wow you Italian guys can sneak up on us like Ghurkas! Embarassed  Sorry Teo, your Italian style didn't register with my British lack of it. Very Happy The Italian delegation is hereby recognised and registered. cheers

    Is not a competition in style, mate Wink
    So anyone's got his own style which is super Smile (anyway, I wish I could have some British style too Razz)

    Good to read we can be considered as a delegation Smile

    ROCK ON!
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    bordonbert

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by bordonbert on Tue Jun 13, 2017 8:06 am

    Hahaha! Let's be honest, there is no competition to Italian style in some areas Teo Laughing, I've been to Milan and seen it first hand. And there's Venice, and Prosecco, and Cafe Latte, and Ferrari....? It speaks for itself in so many ways. (Mind you Hamilton and Bottas are doing a good job of keeping the Cavallino Rampante in check at the moment. Not for long I hope. We want a good competitive finish to the season.) British style is in essence a lot more subdued I think, or at least it used to be. We are a cool weather nation unlike you hot passionate Mediterranean types. Don't know how to describe American style, sometimes it fizzes and pops like a firecracker.
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    Teo

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by Teo on Wed Jun 14, 2017 3:07 am

    bordonbert wrote:Hahaha!  Let's be honest, there is no competition to Italian style in some areas Teo Laughing, I've been to Milan and seen it first hand.  And there's Venice, and Prosecco, and Cafe Latte, and Ferrari....?  It speaks for itself in so many ways.  (Mind you Hamilton and Bottas are doing a good job of keeping the Cavallino Rampante in check at the moment.  Not for long I hope.  We want a good competitive finish to the season.)  British style is in essence a lot more subdued I think, or at least it used to be.  We are a cool weather nation unlike you hot passionate Mediterranean types.  Don't know how to describe American style, sometimes it fizzes and pops like a firecracker.

    Ahahahah, you touched the right strings Razz at least with Ferrari, as far as I am born in the same area of the Ferrari factory, and well... it's a real Cavallino fever for me Razz Yeah, McLaren guys are doin' a great job, but at least, this year seems it will be a more balanced championship Smile

    And also, I've studied at Sussex University in Brighton for 9 months and also lived and worked (and played) in London for a while, so I am well familiar with weather and the rest Wink
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    Bull_Earwig

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    Re: WMI question

    Post by Bull_Earwig on Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:31 pm

    Hey Paulo,
    You were asking questions about wireless, the WMI-1 and things like that. I have tried all of the remote editor solutions for the GM36 on both the PC and iPad and might be able to clarify some things.

    1. First, make sure when you are looking at software and apps about what they will run on. I know this sounds obvious, but, for example, an IoS app will not run on a regular Apple computer which uses an OSX operating system or something other name than IoS.

    2. Next, understand that the Apple world is way ahead of PCs when it comes to wireless MIDI. If you find a wireless MIDI adapter, make sure it works with your Operating System and software/app. The Microsoft Surface Pro has BlueTooth built in, has anyone gotten that to work in this context?

    3. About the WMI-1: I own one and use it with the iPad app. I believe it is only useful if you have the iPad app (though I wish I was wrong). It does provide an important MIDI merge function, but that's an advanced topic.
    My WMI-1 cost $200 USD and a refurbished iPad was several hundred more USD. So, it's all pricey, but a dream to use. When tweaks and adjustments are easy and fun to do, you do more.

    4. Sorry, I have not tried the Android version, but there is also a PC/Mac version of the Remote software. Frankly, the guy that made this, Fredo, did an awesome job. There are features in this that are better than the original, iPad-only app.
    I have yet to find a way to use a PC to wirelessly with app to edit the GM36, but I have not tried very hard since the iPad works pretty well (except for all the quirkiness of iPads wanting to hide files from you like you are some kind of moron).

    5. I've tried using a USB-to-MIDI interface on a Windows PC to edit the GM36. It worked well, just don't get a cheap Chinese one. But, when I wanted to simultaneously edit presets in an FX unit that was also MIDI-controllable, I got a rude surprise: once one software used the MIDI driver, the other one was locked out. I could only run one of the editors at a time.

    Ultimately, a good answer to that problem is how Eventide designed their H9 FX pedal: you control it in a gig with MIDI, but you can use Bluetooth with an iPad app to edit.

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