Grandmeister 36 - does not appear to send midi output from amp

I am using the following equipment and software:

- Grandmeister 36
- FSM -432 MK III
- Roland UM-1 USB / midi interface
- Microsoft surface tablet running Windows 10
- Hughes & Kettner – GrandMeister Desktop Remote (https://ctrlr.org/hughes-kettner-grandmeister-36/)

Connections are as follows:
- GM36 midi in -> FSM midi out
- FSM midi in - UM-1 midi out
- UM-1 midi in -> GM36 midi out

I have used this setup successfully in the past.  But, the Desktop remote no longer connects to the amp.

It appears to me that midi data is no longer being sent from the amp.
- The GrandMeister Desktop Remote does not connect to the GM36 amp
- UM-1 midi out light is blinking
- UM-1 midi in stays off
- The GM36 amp responds to changes sent from the FSM
- The GM36 amp responds to changes sent from the GrandMeister Desktop Remote "library"

Here are some things that I have tried to resolve the problem.
- midi cables test OK
- UM-1 test OK
- view midi activity using MIDI-OX (http://www.midiox.com/)

I have run out of ideas for getting this setup running again and my suspicion is that midi-out from the amp is no longer working.  Is there a way to confirm my suspicion?  What can be done?

Hi DPS2. I also use a GM36 an, like you , I am using the GM v2.5.2 version of the app and not the latest BS200 version. Some of what I say will no doubt be second nature to you and "teaching granny to suck eggs". I promise I'm not being condescending. Even though it would seem a waste of time it is always best to check off things that may have been overlooked, apologies in advance for that.

The MIDI format and its hardware is very well designed and is pretty robust as long as you don't do anything silly such as feed in large damaging voltages. It sounds like you have had good use out of this and your connections are well set up so I would be surprised if you have done anything like that. My guess is that some setting has been lost and it just needs to be reset. This could be in the app or on the amp.

I would start with checking your Inputs and Channels. Make sure that under the app <MIDI> menu the Input, Output and Controller settings are all correct and match the amp's settings. If the channels do not match up you will get the effect of data being ignored and, to the human eye, apparently not being sent. Check the channel settings on the amp too and make sure they match. The manual is pretty straightforward in its advice on how to do this. If that needs explaining let me know.

Assuming they match up, have you used the monitor in the app to see what data is coming and going? It's under <Tools> -> <MIDI Monitor>. In that, under <View>, you should be able to set monitoring of the input and/or output streams and you can choose the type of data you wish to select. You can then see the data which is actually being sent to the amp which is not the problem and any data being received from it. I would hope that some of this may be what is wrong.

If you can see no data being received in the MIDI Monitor then can you test the UM-1 in any other way, say with another application and device? How are you sure it has not gone belly up? You say it tests ok, what form of testing is that?

Thanks bordonbert for your reply.

The app midi settings are:
Input (UM-ONE / CH:0) (I think that means all channels or omni)
Output (UM-ONE / CH:0) (MIDI Thru set to Input device => Output Device)
Controller (UM-ONE / CH:1)

I followed the procedure for checking the amp settings in section 8.1 of the GM-36 manual.  All of the amp channel LED are off which indicates the amp is using channel 1.  The FX-Access is ON indicating the amp is using OMNI mode.  The "store" button is also ON (I am not sure what that means).  See attached picture of the amp.




Ctrlr / MIDI Monitor result:
The Monitor output panel is updated approximately every 1/4 to 1/2 second.  The RAW data is f0 00 20 44.  Ch:, No:, and Val:  have no data reported.
When I send instruction to the amp from either the app or the FSM, no data is reported in the Monitor input panel.

I don't have a physical key board to test the UM-1 interface.  Instead I used a virtual midi keyboard VMPK (https://vmpk.sourceforge.io/) on a desktop PC.  I connected the app to a Roland DUO Capture EX on the PC to monitor the i/o with MIDI-OX.  The in and out LED on the UM-1 responded correctly.  I have attached a picture of the MIDI-OX results.



Let me know if I have not described everything clearly.  What are your thoughts?

Thanks for your help.

Have a look at the app's <Help> -> <About> and see which version you are using.  My Channels selection list has "All Channels" and no "0".  Are you using a different version to me?

I think you may be better off testing by choosing a channel on the GM36 and then using that channel specifically in the app for all communications.

In the monitor <View> menu try turning off Raw data and selecting Name, Channel, Number and Value.  Does that give you more friendly looking data?

Oh, and the Store button lights up to indicate you are in MIDI setup mode.  You need to hold it for the 3 seconds to go back to play mode.

Just an oddity.  The Roland UM-1 manual shows a layout of the unit and it only has one LED.  You mentioned an input LED and an output LED.  Am I looking at the correct interface?

I am using v2.5.2 of the GM remote app.  The same version that you mentioned in your original reply.

Here are images of the settings that I am using in the app for input, controller and output:





Am I correct to use "All channels" for "Controller"?

I have also checked "Input device ==> Output device" in the output section.  Is that correct?



I changed the GM36 amp setting to use channel 2.  I still get the same results.  Nothing is posted to the lower panel (Input montitor) when I change the amp settings using the FSM or remote app.



Here is an image of the UM-ONE USB/Midi interface that I am using.  There are 3 LED:  Power (USB) ; data IN ; data OUT.



I purchased a Fore USB/Midi interface.  It seems to have the same specs as UM-ONE.  I get the same results with that interface.



Thanks again for your help.

I see where the "Channel 0" comes from now.  I didn't realise it displayed that to represent omni.

I would definitely start with a bit of simplification.  Try turning off "Omni mode" in your GM36 and telling it to use a specific single channel.  Let's say 1 to match the other settings you already have.  Now make sure that the app matches this with all 3 options set to channel 1.  That way we can be sure things are matching up as they should.  If the amp can only respond to channel 1 and the app can only respond to the same channel then it is the simplest setup possible.

The Omni setup could be used to involve more than one MIDI unit in the line.  Sometimes you may want to involve say two amps and messages may need to be sent out to only one.  The app needs to be able to listen for any messages from either but to send out to each individually.

Also, keep in mind that the FSM432 is a dumb device.  It only sends out messages informing anyone which of its buttons has been pressed and what that means in terms of changing functions.  It passes straight through to the amp any messages from the app without being affected by them at all.  It stores no information inside itself about your presets too, all of those are stored in the amp and both the app and the FSM432 tells the amp which one you have selected so the amp can change it according to its own internal stored database.  The FSM432 is basically just the dumb switching servant of the amp.

What other options are you offered for the Controller Device?

I turned off the OMNI mode on the amplifier (FX Access OFF).
I tried setting the amplifier and app to channel 1.  Same result.
I tried again with the amplifier and app set to channel 2.  Same result.

The options under Controller Device, other than Device, are the same as Input Device.  You can choose "All Channels" or select channels 1 thru 16.

Just in case there was some problem in the FSM that was blocking output from the amplifier, I previously tried bypassing the FSM by plugging the app directly into the amplifier midi IN and OUT.  I still have the same results that way.

Thanks for hanging in there with me on this rather sticky problem.

Yes, it is an odd one isn't it. The only thing I am not sure about is the selection of the controller. What I meant was, when you select <MIDI> -> "Controller" -> "Device" what options are offered to you in the dropdown list? Is the UM-1 the only option in there? The channels will be the same of course and I think we should be using channel 1 to match the other settings.

One other thing I would do when you get a second is to swap the two 5 pin MIDI cables over from input to output just to rule them out once and for all.  I mean swap them at both ends of course so you still have the system wired as it is now, just with the cables in the opposite side of the setup. You can't swap the 7pin between the GM36 and FSM432 of course but that seems to be working as the amp is responding to everything it should be.

MIDI cables are notorious for being "definitely perfect" until they become "oops, I was sure it was ok".  I have experienced that myself and it has happened here on the forum a number of times.

I am testing on both a Microsoft Windows 10 tablet and a Desktop Windows 10 PC.  I have a Roland DUO Capture connected to the desktop PC.  So, that device shows up as a possible device in the app for Controller.  On the tablet, "None" and the UM-ONE are the only possible devices for Controller.

I don't have a device to test the midi cables.  But I tried to eliminate "bad" midi cable possibilities by swapping them out with spare 5-pin and 7-pin cables.  Hoping I am not that unlucky that all my cables have gone bad.

I have tried swapping IN/OUT cable positions of the USB/Midi interface (reverse I/O) and tried again just now.  The result is as I would expect.  The amplifier responds to changes from the FSM but not from the remote app.

Thanks for the info re controllers. There doesn't seem to be anything that you can switch to other than the UM-1 itself so we must assume that is correct. It's just that the term "controller" doesn't seem to fit what is being meant there. The UM-1 is not a controller, it is only the interface between the devices. That has always been an oddity in my mind. Anyway, enough semantics and onwards and upwards...

No problem with the cable idea either then. The cable swapping was just a suggestion which is covered by what you have already done in substituting other cables but without needing any spares to hand. If you have already swapped them out and things are the same then that takes care of that. I just wasn't sure what you had done on that score.

Ok, I have to be honest, I'm running out of ideas here but try removing the FSM432 and just connect the amp and UM-1 direct. See if that alters anything. As I said before, simplifying as much as you humanly can is a good move when fault finding.

Incidentally, anyone else seeing this, please feel free to chime in with ideas here. More heads means more scrutiny and ideas.

I have eliminated the FSM by plugging tablet with USB/Midi interface directly into the Midi IN and OUT port in the back of the amplifier. That eliminates all cables and the FSM. I still get the same result. I can control the amplifier settings with the remote app but the app does not connect to the amp so I cannot store setting changes from the remote app.

I don't know the internals of the app but I suspect in needs a response from amplifier to identify the amp type but never receives any data from the amplifier midi out. And in the case where FSM is connected, data must be sent from the amplifier midi out to update the FSM setting when a different bank/channel is selected from the remote app.

This is what makes me suspect that something has gone wrong with the amplifier midi out. I am hoping to get a validation of that suspicion. And, also praying that there is a solution that does not require sending the amplifier out for repair.

If I am stuck with the only option is 'amplifier repair shop', then I will just deal with the inconvenience rather than the risk of mailing the amplifier to some distant land for repair. I can control the amplifier settings through the remote app. I have not tried yet but I am pretty sure that I will be able to store the settings for a tone in the amplifier by pressing the store button on the amplifier and then a corresponding value from the FSM. It will only be an inconvenience because I will have to use paper and pencil to document an amplifier tone I have selected for a particular song and where that tone is stored in the amp (bank/channel).

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Let me know if you come across any other thoughts on the problem.

What I would now suggest is that you involve H&K. Don't bother sending them emails, they are often on the road at fairs and the like and don't reply reliably. Go to their Facebook page and post a query there. Make sure it is the official one as there are others. Look for "Product/Service" on the homepage. This should get you there: H&K Faecesbook Page. That way it is very much in public and gets a much quicker response. In fairness it is easier to respond quickly to that when you only have a few minutes in a busy day out of the office.

I'll keep on mulling this over and get back to you if anything else occurs to me. This may very well be something simple which we are just being blind to.

Thanks for the tip on contacting H&K through Facebook. I will create a post there and let you know when I get a response.

Hi there !
Maybe some insight :
- MIDI THRU / Input -> Output should NOT be checked
- Sharing MIDI driver between several application will not work : reboot the tablet to make sure no other application is using MIDI (e.g. MIDI-OX)
- You can try and delete the application folder (<User>\AppData\Roaming\GrandMeister Remote - v2.5.2) to make sure it did not store an improper state
Good luck !

Fredo.

Much appreciated Fredo. Thanks for that.

I've just reread all of this thread and I am now confused. I must have made a couple of assumptions early on as to the nature of your problem but it looks now as though I don't really understand it.

It just got the idea that you might be trying to store presets on the amp once you have created them in the app. Is that correct or am I miles off? If that is the case I don't believe you can actually do that. The only way that presets can be stored on the amp is to - store them manually on the amp! You can set them up in the app and they will reflect into the current settings on the amp but they will not be stored there unless you actually go through the store procedure manually on the GM36. In the same way the app reflects anything which is selected or set up on the GM36 but it won't save that unless you tell it to from within the app.

Can you clear this up for me. If you have the app and amp connected as we have been talking about, does the app reflect any changes that you make manually on the GM36? For instance, if you change the channel between Clean, Crunch, Lead and Ultra with the amp rotary switch does the app display change in step with it?

Hello Fredo,

Thanks for joining in.

I have done as you instructed.
1) Shutdown and restart the tablet
2) I removed the folder <User>\AppData\Roaming\GrandMeister Remote - v2.5.2.
3) I also removed the folder <User>\gm36. That was not in your instruction but I thought a fresh start would be okay
4) Start the remote app. Both the folders which were deleted are created new.
5) Set Midi IN, Midi OUT and Controller to mathch the amplifier settings. All looks good in the app.

The result is still the same. The amplifier responds to changes from the app and from the FSM but the app is not connected to the amplifier.

Hello bordonbert,

I understand that setting on the remote app can only be moved to the amplifier after a connection is established. Only then you can use the "Library" button labeled "Send to Amp" to copy all of the library settings to the amplifier. However, I am not able to obtain a connection to the amp.

Dps2, can you use the Midi Monitor, select "raw data" / "monitor input" / "monitor output" and send us a screenshot after connecting the amp ?

Hello Fredo,

Here is the raw data screen shot.  I depressed the FSM switches and changed Channel setting on the amplifier with the remote app while connected and recording but that data is not recorder - no output data from the amplifier to the input panel of the midi monitor.

No, I think you may be missing the point I am trying to make here.  You say, "I understand that setting on the remote app can only be moved to the amplifier after a connection is established. Only then you can use the "Library" button labeled "Send to Amp" to copy all of the library settings to the amplifier. However, I am not able to obtain a connection to the amp."  I'm trying to establish at the basic level whether there really is no connection or whether there is just no traffic to show it exists.

You should not have to SEND anything to get the amp and app to maintain the same settings.  Sending the library with "Send to amp" is only pushing the full list of presets from the app to the amp where it overwrites the existing set.  That is of course an important function but the point is that, you should also see that if you make a change of any control or a new selection of preset in either of them you see it reflected instantly in the other.  "Send"ing is only necessary to push the whole set of presets from one to the other.  If the copying of a change to a single setting is not reflected instantly then there is genuinely no connection established.  If it does then you have a working connection and the problem is with the block transfer and store of the "Preset Library".

When you make a change to a control on the app, let's choose a Clean to Ultra channel selection, does the amp instantly pick that up and change its own setting to match?  (I picked that selection as it should show up clearly via the LEDs.) On the other side, when you change the channel with the GM36's rotary switch does the app respond by changing its selection too?

Dps2, the screenshot shows that the app is not receiving any message from the amp.
The amp should respond to the command that is sent every second. Maybe it does, but the application is not receiving it...
If you don't see anything in the input (green) window while rotating knobs on the amp, it means that the MIDI connection between the amp and the tablet is not working for some reason :-/

Hi bordonbert,

There is no connection to the amplifier. The toggle switch will not move from Library to Amp.

The midi OUT LED on the interface blinks continuously. The midi IN LED on the interface never shows activity. I can use the remote app to change the Channel setting from "Clean" to "Ultra" or any of the other Channel settings. The amplifier responds correctly by illuminating the selected channel LED.

NOTE: If I change Preset on the app from #1 (1-A) on the app to #32 (8-D) the amplifier responds correctly. But, the FSM display is not updated. I have full dynamic control of the amplifier from the remote app.

Next, if I choose a preset using the FSM, the amplifier responds by activating the settings which are stored in the amplifier. But, the remote app display is not updated .

I hope that I clearly described this. If not, please let me know any additional info that you need.

Thanks for your patience.