BS 200 Floor output

Hi there,

Am an enthousiastic H&K user for over 20 years since decades ago I bought that Triplex Combo and still use it frequently.
However, I want to improve sounds and ease of handling as well as playing over a PA system so I am seriously considering the BS 200 floor (so I can also use it as a replacement for my ME-80 as well). What I have seen in demo's thus far seems to suit me quite well in terms of what I need, so this might be the next purchase.

I however do have 1 question. I would love to be able to play the same sounds at home as well as via the PA system on stage. Will I be able to achieve that by using the redbox, and on stage, output that to the PA system and at home (or when practising somewhere else) by outputting it to a FRFR speaker? Can it (the redbox) be outputted to an FRFR speaker? (Since there also is this switch next to the speaker output which changes between normal or FR speaker cabs).

Regards,

Hi Tuckson, welcome here.  I will point out though I am sure you are aware, the Redbox out is only a preamp level signal.  I don't mean that to be specific in any way, I'm only meaning that it can only successfully drive preamp type units at low voltages and very low power.  Let's make clear to less experienced people coming across this that it cannot be used to drive any passive speaker direct, you need a power amp between the Redbox and the speaker.  That of course is inbuilt in an active speaker.

The switch on the Redbox output for Normal<->FRFR only switches the frequency response between "only whatever you set the amp controls to" and "amp control settings plus response shaping to emulate speaker cabinet".  Hence, when using a FRFR speaker or running through front of house most people will need to put that into FRFR mode to imprint the response of a real life guitar cabinet onto the signal.  This then compensates for the flat response of the FRFR speaker.  Without that the sound can be very odd and lifeless.

I assume the reason the Normal option is there is for the case where you might use the Redbox out to drive something like a real life guitar power amp, (perhaps via the Fx Loop Return), and speaker.  This could be a separate amp/speaker setup, (say Fender/Marshall head + speaker), or it could be a simpler slave power amp and speaker setup.  In that case the setup already has its speaker response built into it and any further shaping by the Redbox could muddy the sound. The sound you will get on stage and at home will never quite be the same in reality, but if you are using FRFR speakers in both cases it should be pretty close given the difference in room responses.

I'm not a user of the BS200 Floor I'm afraid so I can't comment from real life.  I'm sure someone somewhere can chip in and talk about how well that works.

I'm one of those inexperienced people considering amp inside techie stuff. But I suppose I understand what yo
u mean.  But something like this :

should be no issue then?

Yes, that will work.  It's a FRFR speaker and is of course active with its own power amp inside it.  Your Redbox output would plug directly into that.  As I said before, you would probably prefer the H&K "FRFR" setting as that will imprint the sound and dynamics of a real guitar cabinet onto the flat response of the Headrush.

A little caveat here.  If you are planning to use that on stage as your personal monitor I would say great, you may need loudish and it does have a socket to feed on to front of house.  However, if you are only planning to use it for home use, I would suggest it will be very loud - very very loud.  It may well be much more than you need, (given that I don't know your home situation and feelings of responsibility towards other family members, neighbours, your house structure and delicate pets!   Deafness and "shock death" are sometimes prerequisites in people's requirements nowadays.

They claim "peak power 2000W", I claim "Tommyrot!"  If that thing could put out 2000W it would be the same power as the entire PA setup for the Hyde Park concerts I went to in the 60s/70s with their scaffolded walls of speakers.

Wikipedia - Hyde Park Concert 1971 wrote:[WEM] Company founder Charlie Watkins recalls it was the largest PA he had assembled to that point and, unable to provide enough gear himself, he was forced to borrow extras from other groups, later saying, "I didn't have many columns, but I wanted to put 1500W up. I borrowed some from T-Rex. They all chipped in — that's what we used to do."

There you go, 1500W to fill Hyde Park and that was considered massive.  And, I can confirm because I was there, it was still loud!  Are we seriously to believe that a single 12" speaker coil or the output devices in an amp the size of the Headrush could dissipate the same power as a full 2 bars of an electric fire without vanishing into magic smoke?  They claim it is Peak Power of course but that still implies a RMS value of many 100s of watts, depending on how they define the measurement process.  To a 4ohm load that would have to supply 90V at 22Amps.  I suspect it will drop away after a couple of milliseconds at peak to about 100W continuous.

It WILL be loud, but take the power quoted with a pinch of salt.  Companies make up their own way of measuring the power they quote in their marketing.  It has always been like that.  That is why the nonsense term "music power" was invented.  The only way to specify is Continuous Sinewave RMS Power which is a mathematically well defined industry standard and cannot be tampered with by marketing gurus. (Hence they don't like using it! )

Looks fine as long as you feel the need for VERY LOUD.  Are you able to audition the two units together before you buy?  That would be the very best way of making sure you will get the sound you want out of them combined.

bordonbert wrote:
The switch on the Redbox output for Normal<->FRFR only switches the frequency response between "only whatever you set the amp controls to" and "amp control settings plus response shaping to emulate speaker cabinet".  Hence, when using a FRFR speaker or running through front of house most people will need to put that into FRFR mode to imprint the response of a real life guitar cabinet onto the signal.  This then compensates for the flat response of the FRFR speaker.  Without that the sound can be very odd and lifeless.

Sorry, took a while. Was ill for almost 2 weeks.
I don't really get what you say here. I mean, you say that for output to a PA system I should use the FRFR setting and not the normal one?

For the record, I bought it by now. At home I have this old, broken, H&K Thirty amp, so I got the speaker off the cable coming from the amp and gave it an external input for a speaker cable. Works like a charm with the power soak set to 20. So for home I am covered now.
Will test the BS200 next sunday on stage.

Does the powersoak setting make any difference for the signal coming out of the redbox? Reading your post, I assume it does not?

Sorry, I think I have muddied the waters by forgetting you are talking about the BS200 Floor!!!  The controls and switches I have referred to relate more to the head amp models and not to the Floor modeller.  I'll try and correct myself and clear things up.

You have two setups to consider here, the "Speaker Output" and the "Redbox Output".

The speaker out socket has the ability to drive a passive guitar cabinet or a passive PA type FRFR cabinet.  If you attach a guitar cabinet, that will add its own character of colouration to the sound.  If you attach a PA cabinet (FRFR) which is designed to add as little as possible you will not get that added contribution to tone.  As you know the PA type cabinet can sound flat and dull without the lively response of the guitar cabinet so if you are using the Speaker Output into a passive FRFR cabinet you may want to add in the colouration of a normal guitar cabinet.  You can do that by selecting one of the cabinet types on the top panel and setting the rear switch to "Fullrange Cab".  That will add in the sound of the cabinet type you select in your settings.  As H&K say:

BS200 Floor Manual wrote:Cabinet: Versatility is what this unique feature is all about. Set it to Guitar Cab to connect standard guitar cabinets. Set it to Fullrange Cab position to drive any passive – that is, non-powered – fullrange speaker.

Selecting Fullrange Cab will add in the missing cabinet response as the attached cabinet is adding none of its own.  Selecting Guitar will leave any shaping out as the cabinet is adding that itself.

For the Redbox area the principle is the same.  H&K say:

BS200 Floor Manual wrote:On/Off: When you switch the cabinet emulation Off, the Red Box out sends an unfiltered signal for use with your favorite cabinet and microphone simulation software or processor.

With Off selected the emulation is switched off.  Use this when you are driving anything, (an alternative guitar amp maybe), where the speaker cabinet is a normal guitar type with its own response to add.  Switch the emulation to On when you are feeding the front of house PA or any FRFR flat response type of setup.

The Power Soak is normally independent of the Redbox.  The Redbox in the head amps takes its input signal from the terminal of the output transformer and that is also the input for the Power Soak on its way to the speaker socket so the Power Soak comes after the Redbox takeoff and can't affect it.  I have to make the assumption that the BS200 Floor will follow the same pattern though that is not confirmed, I don't have a schematic for it nor do I have one to play with I'm afraid.  My guess would be that it will follow the same design and the power soak setting will not affect the Redbox out in any way.

Sorry for getting ahead of myself, the Floor has a different set of options and labels to the heads and I missed that.  Hope this is now clear.

Thnx for your extensive explanation. Makes things a bit more clear.