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    More Information about FX loop components

    Keetonian
    Keetonian


    Posts : 9
    Join date : 2018-01-11

    More Information about FX loop components Empty More Information about FX loop components

    Post by Keetonian Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:56 pm

    bordonbert wrote:If we can prove it is the loop buffer it is a very simple stage.  There are only 5 components which are all cheap so a decent tech should sort it out pretty quickly.

    I have a Grandmeister Deluxe 40 and the effect loop stopped working. I performed your cable test running a patch cable between the loop send and receive and I get no sound whatsoever. Same when using effects in the loop when the button is engaged.

    I'm looking for details on how to repair it. Hoping you have some helpful information such as the parts needed and perhaps point to a schematic.

    Thanks!
    Keetonian
    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1790
    Join date : 2015-01-28
    Age : 72
    Location : Southern England

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    Post by bordonbert Sun Mar 31, 2024 2:47 pm

    Hi Keetonian.  I read your response in the other forum thread for the TM40.  I've split it off and put it here where more people who have GM40D amps may see it.  I think you have a better chance of getting a response here and it will also be easier for others to find when they may be searching.  I have PMd you about this and with some other advice so check your messages.

    I'll start by pointing out that the schematics for the GM40D are not openly available on the internet.  We have to consider H&K's intellectual property here.  They have spent a lot of money developing their amps and they have a right to say how the information on those models is dealt with.  For older amps which are now no longer current items in their catalogue it is not so important but for their more up to date models it is only fair that we should respect their rules, and they want to preserve the schematics for themselves.  So I can't help directly with that as I don't have any GM40D access.  However...

    I do have the schematics for the GM36 and the TM18.  These form the basis of the whole family.  A development line rarely has a completely new designed from scratch model added.  Usually each model is a modified version of the one that went before.  With that in mind your GM40D will be based very closely on the GM36.  Areas like the Fx Loop are perfectly working sections of the GM36 so they should be at least very similar in the GM40D if not perfect copies.

    The Fx Loop Send in the GM36 has its own dedicated buffer.  This ensures a low impedance drive, about 220Ohms, to cope with any sensible pedal input design.  The Fx Return comes back into a high impedance of about 25k.  Most pedal outputs are well below that so should drive it without complaint.  The Return has a pair of zener diodes protecting it from excessive voltages.  These clip any signal peaks above about 7V which is well above anything we should be feeding in so they play no part in normal action.  This means that the Fx Return side should be pretty much bombproof, unless you actually set out to destroy it!

    It should be easy to do some simple checks to see where the problem lies.  Firstly take out the signal from the Fx Send socket and feed it into any other amp as an input signal.  If you get sound then the Send circuitry is absolutely fine.  If you don't then that is the starting point of a fix.  Secondly, take a feed from a second amp Loop Send or from just a pedal output into the Fx Return and plug your guitar into the other amp or the pedal directly.  You now have the whole of the preamp and Fx Send circuitry isolated and out of use.  If this works and you hear anything, not necessarily as it would normally sound but working, then the Return circuitry is fine.  If it isn't then we have a problem there.  Try those simple tests and let us know what you find.

    It will still pay you to clean up your Fx Send and Return sockets and do so from time to time.  It is possible one of them has very dirty contacts for both the plug insertion wafers and for the switching side.  You probably know but these are different spots on the same metal parts in most simple 6.35mm 1/4" jack sockets.  Do you have any contact cleaner spray?  If not then I would get some, it's always a good thing to have in your maintenance bag.  DO NOT USE WD40 OR ANY OTHER PRODUCT OF THAT TYPE!!!  They are not contact cleaners they are "W"ater "D"ispersal sprays and are unsuited to this work.  I mean something like Servisol Super 10 which is a dedicated switch cleaner.


    _________________
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    Rock On Humble Pie
    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1790
    Join date : 2015-01-28
    Age : 72
    Location : Southern England

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    Post by bordonbert Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:17 pm

    A bit more info...

    If this should turn out to be a more complex problem then there is not a lot you will be able to do. H&K have a policy of not supplying spares to anyone but one of their approved repair centres. You would have to at least deal through one of them. And of course that depends on where you are based. In Europe things are great as H&K are German. Here in the UK it isn't too bad, tiny island nearby and all that. In the US things may be a bit more difficult with the distances involved.

    In your message you described symptoms of craziness due to a MIDI issue. If you had other devices in the chain that sounds like it may have been your MIDI channels getting confused so the amp was responding randomly to signals that were not meant for it. That may have passed and gone and things have sorted themselves out but have you performed a factory reset since then? Problems like that one could maybe be due to glitched software, and that can happen with just the slightest of errors in the installed code. You could try that just to rule out software corruption as a factor. It isn't highly likely but it is a possibility after such a strange problem. Bear in mind, you will lose all of your current settings and any precious presets!!! Don't do it unless they aren't important or you have made a backup off the amp through the app.

    For the record the MIDI messaging and control section is completely separate from anything signal related, it doesn't even touch it, and MIDI circuitry is made bombproof in terms of its affecting things like power supplies. You can short out MIDI lines without any fear of damage being caused inside the amp. (Don't try putting 100V across there to test that, there are always limits! Wink ) It is only connected to the digital processing system to pass on decoded messages and it is that software based side which orders the changes in the amp. The switching in the analogue signal circuitry then acts on them. So I find it hard to see the MIDI area as a factor in this other than having possibly messed up the software and even that is a stretch.

    All that said, if the amp is working as it should with the loop disengaged then the basic functionality is fine. A simple thing, does the LED in the Fx Loop switch turn on and off as it should? That LED is in the signal line from the switch to the processor so it will give us an indication as to whether the switch is working and whether it is sending the correct signal or not. I couldn't pick up on whether the amp worked with the loop engaged with that switch and with the patch cable across the loop sockets. Do you get sound like that? That would confirm whether there is a problem with the buffer or not.

    The problem has to be somewhere around the signal line in the loop. We wouldn't be talking about the small Effects Board, that is only for the amp's own internal effects and not external pedals. It is in circuit all of the time with no switching in and out involved. The things that could be involved would seem to be the Fx Loop switch which engages it, the Send buffer, the Loop Send and Return sockets, and the solid state switching IC which controls the whole selection process. These should all be checked out by the simple tests we have mentioned which you can set up. So get these tests done: the Fx switch LED on/off action, signal from the Send socket into other amp, signal from other amp Send or a pedal into Return socket. The results of those tests should tell us whether there is something more serious wrong.

    Just for info, the loop is engaged by a solid state switching IC which selects and passes on either the unaffected signal or the signal returning from the loop to the following preamp circuitry. The signal sent to the Loop Send socket is hooked up constantly, whether the Return signal is selected by that IC is what engages the Loop. The chip also performs other changes to the preamp circuit setup which have nothing to do with the loop and won't be involved. There is a LOT of switching of tonal circuitry going on due to channel selections and it is all controlled by a series of these switches. The changes take place in the preamp section on the micro-controller and digi-pot board. These switches are complex 16 pin surface mount chips and not relays so are not easily replaceable without special SM rework tools. I wouldn't touch that side of things myself without a proper station in a workshop, and I had a career of doing work like that at a high level!

    If you can, add a factory reset which will reinstall the software back to its original level to the tests you have lined up. It's a good thing to do from time to time for any amp of this type. Answering those couple of simple questions will help too.


    _________________
    Newcastle Brown, can sure smack you down
    You take a greasy wh*re, and a rollin' dance floor
    You know you're jailhouse bound!

    Rock On Humble Pie

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