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    New Grandmeister coming Out!

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    treewiz

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    New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by treewiz on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:10 pm

    Just saw on the Huges & Kettner site's News section about a New Grandmeister coming out. Official annoucement on Sept. 19th
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    bish0p34

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by bish0p34 on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:14 pm

    And I will be buying one eventually lol.

    I currently have 7 H&K's, and used to have a Duotone as well. When I get one, the Tubemeisters will be going.
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    gravydb

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by gravydb on Tue Sep 13, 2016 12:45 pm

    I figured they would release a new GM soon, on the heels of the TM Deluxes. I'll bet at the very least it will have the new Ambience Emulated Redbox which would be very cool.

    Anyone have any other guesses? Any wishlist features?
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    namklak

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by namklak on Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:33 pm

    Wishlist:
    No TubeScreamer op-amp circuit on the input, so I can use an overdrive to hammer the tubes , not the TS circuit. (BTW, the existence of this circuit is supposition)
    A setting option similar to the Resonance and Presence, where the 36/18/5/1 power setting can be made global, not per patch.
    Red Box output at mic level instead of line level, or switchable. I have never used it at a gig, because about half the sound guys don't know if their board has switch to handle line level.
    Maybe 6L6/EL34?
    Switchable tone stack treble/bass break points

    It'll be interesting, I can't imagine a feature that will drive me to upgrade... (said the blind man...)
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    winky

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by winky on Sat Sep 17, 2016 10:34 am

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    bordonbert

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by bordonbert on Sun Sep 18, 2016 8:27 am

    Excellent idea, a wishlist!!!!

    Namklak wrote:Wishlist:
    No TubeScreamer op-amp circuit on the input, so I can use an overdrive to hammer the tubes , not the TS circuit. (BTW, the existence of this circuit is supposition)
    I think we can safely say there is something there for definite now Namklak.  The effect on the input signal could be removed with a little light modding to turn it into a simple buffer.  It would retain the idea of a selectable clean boost too rather than kicking in the assymetric clipping it now has and the amount of boost can be modified pretty easily.  It may not be possible to bypass the circuit in it's entirety as it feeds another active tone shaping circuit before hitting the valve section, though maybe if we had a look with that in mind....  That said, a completely clean opamp buffer circuit adds nothing to the overall signal, we both know that the idea of "tone suck" simply because a 0.01% distortion stage in there is pretty far fetched.

    Namklak wrote:A setting option similar to the Resonance and Presence, where the 36/18/5/1 power setting can be made global, not per patch.
    Absolutely!!!  A major step forward in my opinion.  I've often wondered why this wasn't already there as an option it's so fundamental.  It's an absolute pain to have to go through duplicating patches with different power settings and it ends up almost unworkable in terms of ease of selection.

    Namklak wrote:Red Box output at mic level instead of line level, or switchable. I have never used it at a gig, because about half the sound guys don't know if their board has switch to handle line level.
    That makes sense, though you could easily make a passive reduction unit with a few resistors fitted inside a XLR plug with a XLR line socket on the end of on a short cable to take care of this one. It can be plugged in as a pigtail when you need it.  Values are pretty easy to come up with to preserve balanced action and correct impedance for any amount of reduction. ( Are we thinking this may be useful? Wink )

    Namklak wrote:Maybe 6L6/EL34?
    Great idea!  I would never have thought of that.  The autobias circuitry they use should help though I would guess it would mean a reprogramming of some sort of memory chip.  Keep in mind that it would mean a different set of valve bases but it would be doable.

    Namklak wrote:Switchable tone stack treble/bass break points
    And again, another one out of the ballpark.  In fact, the tone stack is trimmed already for different channel voicing but it isn't under our control other than by selecting the channel.  I still feel, after all my bleating on, that the tone controls are a weakness with not a really helpful amount of range and an odd amount of interaction so I'm with you 100%.

    Namklak wrote:It'll be interesting, I can't imagine a feature that will drive me to upgrade... (said the blind man...)
    I'm with you (even though I also can't see you).  There is such a learning curve with the GM36 that I don't really want to have to go thorugh it all again with another amp.  Time investment is one of the heaviest penalties for me.  I want to be out there playing not sitting at home or wasting everyone's time during rehearsal trying to find a way of achieving the right sound.

    Any more bright ideas for H&K to consider?  It is rumoured they do pop in here for a sneak peek from time to time.

    steve15366

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    RE:New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by steve15366 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:12 am

    Just saw the Bea video of the new Grandmeister deluxe 40 and it looks like not alot has changed. 4 watts added and more red box functions. Or have I missed something? Shocked Still a fab amp though. Very Happy
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    Syn666

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by Syn666 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 10:18 am

    I wonder if the channels have been revoiced...

    "thanks to Deluxe Tone Technology, which pairs groundbreaking new circuit design advances with renowned tone-shaping capabilities, all inspired by our flagship TriAmp Mark 3"

    What will this translate to, comparing to the 36?
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    namklak

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by namklak on Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:28 am

    I could get this for fix the hot RedBox signal
    http://www.guitarcenter.com/Hosa/XLR-Female-to-XLR-Male-Input-Attenuator.gc
    but for the summer festival season, where there is as little as 20 minutes between bands, I don't need another cable/adapter to haul around. And like Bordonbert said, all this requires is a few resistors and a switch, this should be in the amp. Or skip this switch and just make this mic level. Who benefits from this being line level?
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    John_M

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by John_M on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:17 pm

    I run direct most of the time. What soundman doesn't know if his board handles both signals? Further, what board doesn't handle both? Turn the gain down, or engage the pad like on my AH Mixwiz
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    bordonbert

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by bordonbert on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:31 pm

    I had a feeling that H&K were going to put one of the valves into a cathode follower role which gives oodles of great natural valve even order harmonic distortion when working with a common cathode amplifying stage.  Look slike I could be wrong on that score though as I can't find any reference to this now.

    I have just been onto the H&K site for the Grandmeister Deluxe 40 page and it has some 15 recordings of voices and playing styles.  And guess what, they all sound pretty much the same to me.  Not exactly the same but sharing a common structure.  Crisp/sharp top end, recessive middle, no bottom end at all.  They are still, to my mind, aiming this amp at a particular market, and it isn't the classic old guys like me, it's the impressionable kids who want to shred and tap their way up to rock stardom a year after retiring to their bedroom to learn the ropes.  To say I'm disappointed is an understatement.  H&K have not really listened to anything anyone has said, just continued along with their mission statement, (as is their perfect right).  It isn't an amp I would want to upgrade to, it offers me nothing new of value and the same old problems I've been working to overcome for a couple of years now.  I have my GM36 set up as I like, it would mean just replacing like for like as far as I can hear.

    Namklak, that XLR Attenuator unit looks good.  It's the same enclosure unit I would have used for a diy version, Switchcraft S3FM, but it offers switched levels too.  -20dB, -30dB and -40dB should take care of everything but I can't find any mention of impedances so those figures will be close but not spot on.  The Red Box out is about 700R output impedance per side, (balanced of course), which is higher than a mic would normally be.  Shouldn't matter too much and it's a good bet I reckon.  For once I'm not going to ram "build it yourself" down your throat, this is about the same cost without any of the hassle.  Shocked   Me not moaning?  I reckon that's a win all round.  cheers

    (I think running the RB out at line level may give you potential noise benefits though I'm sure that was not behind the design decision.  It's fully balanced anyway so shouldn't be an issue with a decent cable.)
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    namklak

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by namklak on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:35 pm

    John_M wrote:I run direct most of the time. What soundman doesn't know if his board handles both signals? Further, what board doesn't handle both? Turn the gain down, or engage the pad like on my AH Mixwiz

    We play festivals and halls, and never bring our own PA. Which is good, we don't have a PA big enough, and are too old to lug a PA. Se we are at the mercy of soundman and equipment du jour. Apparently my luck hasn't been as good as yours...

    Turn down the gain??? Blasphemer!!! My Master is at 11 for all gigs! Gotta have that EL84 blood spilled everywhere... And yes, I run an external active power soak.
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    John_M

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by John_M on Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:50 pm

    namklak wrote:
    John_M wrote:I run direct most of the time. What soundman doesn't know if his board handles both signals? Further, what board doesn't handle both? Turn the gain down, or engage the pad like on my AH Mixwiz

    We play festivals and halls, and never bring our own PA.  Which is good, we don't have a PA big enough, and are too old to lug a PA.  Se we are at the mercy of soundman and equipment du jour.  Apparently my luck hasn't been as good as yours...

    Turn down the gain???  Blasphemer!!!  My Master is at 11 for all gigs!  Gotta have that EL84 blood spilled everywhere...  And yes, I run an external active power soak.
    HHaha - I meant for the soundguy to turn down the gain on the channel, but thinking back to the days when I played places that had house sound, IME the soundguy didn't feel like bothering to adjust anything so you got what you got and liked it! Whenever I run sound for a band, I adjust to them. The GM36 has been great direct.
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    namklak

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by namklak on Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:57 pm

    So the 40 does have a switch for the red box to be mic or line, and the I app shows a switch for a global power soak setting. Two items on my wish list came true. I certainly didn't ask for it to be louder
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    gravydb

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by gravydb on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:42 pm

    It's uncommon but I've encountered soundguys whose boards didn't have a line-in accommodation for me for whatever reason (perhaps all the line-in channels were already in use?). Regardless it was reason enough for me to get an attenuator, just to have onhand as a just-in-case type thing. At first I tried the barrel style which worked fine but I didn't care for how it jutted out the back of the amp - what if the cable got suddenly jerked sideways? So, I looked around and found a guy on ebay who makes these short XLR attenuator cables, about 12" long. -40dB attenuation:



    He claims that many of the off-shelf attenuators aren't properly made (not balanced properly, pins have different resistance, etc). He builds his attenuators by hand with quality components and tests them thoroughly. So ok that all might be a big sales pitch, but regardless I've been using one of his attenuators for 4-5 years now, and I've had no problems. With a TM18 and now my GM36.

    The seller's name is mayflowerjones, he doesn't always have them available for sale but check ebay every once in a while and you'll find it. Or better yet just contact him thru ebay. He also makes other values IE -20dB, -30dB, etc.
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    bordonbert

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by bordonbert on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:23 pm

    A couple of things.

    Firstly, the attenuator is much better put on the input of the mixing desk rather than the output of the amp.  That way the signal is kept high through the signal's potentially noisy passage up the cable before being reduced.  Then the noise is reduced by the attenuator along with the signal just as it enters the amp.  You end up with any pickup being attenuated by the same amount as your unit reduces the signal which is much better for your signal to noise ratio.  Yes it's common mode but it is still reduced in proportion.

    Secondly, while I have nothing against any bought kit, everyone should bear in mind that one of these units is only a plug, a socket, a piece of cable, and three or four plain old common or garden resistors.  Exotic resistor types offer absolutely no improvement in this case.  The values needed can only be approximate as they would depend on the amp output impedance, (680R in each arm for the GM36), desk input impedance, (usually specified as 1k-2k), and amount of attenuation required.  This is always the case and is not a problem in any way.  A store bought unit is exactly the same, it only gives an absolutely accurate reduction in one specific case when both amp and mixer matching impedances are matched to the design case.  In reality they never are but it is accurate enough to give close to the desired voltage drop.  The balance of the line is down to the matching of the resistors and there is absolutely no benefit in being better than 1% for our DI.

    The picture (which I'm hoping is attached) shows how easy it is.  The parts to the left are the GM36 RedBox output, those to the right are the mixer input, the middle is the stuff inside the XLR plug which fits into the mixer socket.

    So all we need for a simple balanced attenuator is a resistor in series with both of the signal lines and a pair of resistors across the terminals at the desk input with connection point to ground.  A three resistor "U" filter is possible but you get better CMRR with the four resistor grounded case.  This is built into the XLRplug on the outer end of the reducer pigtail at the mixer desk.  Values are not matched to impedances in our setup, we simply make sure that the output of the amp line drivers is loaded by something at least 10x it's output impedance, and the input of the mixer desk is fed from something at least 10x smaller than its input impedance.  This is known as bridged operation.  It isn't best for power transfer (transmission model) but is better for voltage transfer (bridged model) which is what we are dealing with.

    The total value of the bridging resistor can be 164R, (2x 82R).  This will let each arm of the mixer desk see a source impedance which is of around 18x less than its own input impedance as we require.  We are successfully feeding an input impedance from a much smaller one which is the right way to go.

    For the reduction to be 20dB, 30dB or 40dB we choose our series resistors Rx to suit.  Each half of the balanced system is dealing with its own 82R, so the arm resistance should be a total of the following:

    Case:  20dB Ideal20dB Real30dB Ideal30dB Real40dB Ideal40dB Real
    Rx Value  58R56R1.831k1k87.438k6k8
    Attenuation:  -20dB-19.9788dB-29.9998dB-29.8953dB-40dB-40.7718dB

    Do remember that anything up to about 2dB is not really detectable to the human ear. and we are dealing with dynamic music signals here. Also the matching cannot be anything other than rough and ready at the mixer end, we just don't know which mixer wmay be used and they will vary considerably in their input impedance.

    I do seem to remember that we had this point raised a long while back as I remember Voodoo Jeff making up his own unit and he reported good results from his own build.  I have searched for that thread but I can't for the life of me use the Search facility on the forum to find anything.  Hwystar has talked me through it but I seem to have a blank spot where it is concerned. geek If anyone else can find it.....
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    bordonbert

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by bordonbert on Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:32 pm

    And here is the basic method for doing it. Note the picture does not have all 4 resistors in it, just use it for reference to the method. Also note the use of sleeving to slide over the resistors and insulate the floating connections.

    An 82R and a Rx resistor pair are joined at one end to pin 2. The same is done to pin 3. The two 82R resistors are then joined in the middle and their junction connected to pin 1. The Rx resistor connected to Pin 2 becomes the +ve Hot connection. The Rx resistor to Pin 3 is the -ve Cold connection. Pin 1 remains the ground connection. Voila!
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    namklak

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by namklak on Wed Sep 21, 2016 10:30 am

    As Gravy suggested, I wasn't going to plug the barrel physically into the back of my amp, that looks like trouble.  I was going to use a short mic cable between the gm and the barrel.  I'll look up the eBay guy, but I won't pay much more than the $20 for the barrel from GC.
    Bordonbert is correct in the ideal that the attenuator should be on the receiver side, but in practicality, if it isn't hanging off the back of my amp when I tear down, I will forget it.  The noise accumulated on an actively-driven attenuated balanced line shouldn't be any worse than a passive mic hanging on the same balanced line.
    Or I buy the GM 40 Wink

    Edit: MayFlowerJones doesn't seem to be in business anymore. A quick google reveals all attenuators are barrel type. If I make this myself, it'll survive 5 gigs maybe - not that I'm a gorilla with my cables, but it'd still need some strain relief...
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    stargazer747

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    new presets with new amp?

    Post by stargazer747 on Fri Sep 23, 2016 8:50 am

    Does anyone know if the new GM Deluxe 40's built in 128 preset differ in any way from the GM36? And if it so, would they work on the GM36? I was hoping to discover some new factory tones designed by H&K lab tech players.
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    ignantios

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    Re: New Grandmeister coming Out!

    Post by ignantios on Sun Sep 25, 2016 4:31 am

    bordonbert wrote:I had a feeling that H&K were going to put one of the valves into a cathode follower role which gives oodles of great natural valve even order harmonic distortion when working with a common cathode amplifying stage.  Look slike I could be wrong on that score though as I can't find any reference to this now.

    I have just been onto the H&K site for the Grandmeister Deluxe 40 page and it has some 15 recordings of voices and playing styles.  And guess what, they all sound pretty much the same to me.  Not exactly the same but sharing a common structure.  Crisp/sharp top end, recessive middle, no bottom end at all.  They are still, to my mind, aiming this amp at a particular market, and it isn't the classic old guys like me, it's the impressionable kids who want to shred and tap their way up to rock stardom a year after retiring to their bedroom to learn the ropes.  To say I'm disappointed is an understatement.  H&K have not really listened to anything anyone has said, just continued along with their mission statement, (as is their perfect right).  It isn't an amp I would want to upgrade to, it offers me nothing new of value and the same old problems I've been working to overcome for a couple of years now.  I have my GM36 set up as I like, it would mean just replacing like for like as far as I can hear.
    +10000000 mate you nailed it,i totally agree with you!let's face it,the grandmeister is a great idea.But it lacks warmth,they should have seen that.I still can't make my grand sound the way i like it.Changed tubes ,speakers etc but still the upper midrange is harsh and too modern.I was hopping the new one to solve those issues but nope,there is still long distance ...Not for me!

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