Controlling FX usage on my Grandmeister Deluxe 40 while in preset mode WHILE PERFORMING LIVE

I have set up my Deluxe 40 in preset mode for roughly a 60-song full night set list. In other words, my iPad (clamped to my mic stand) is running the H&K app, my amp and my FSM-432 midi controller are in preset mode, and I have a list of 60 songs in my library, tones all dialed-in, laid out in the proper set list order from 1 to 60. I have my Control 1 output set to 52 and Control 2 output set to 53; these settings are the On/Off functions for the Modulation and the Delay effects respectively. Both of these settings work just fine, to a point.

Here is the problem, and I will provide a specific example to illustrate my point:

One of the songs is Are You Gonna Go My Way by Lenny Kravitz. The song starts out with a basic Crunch tone, some subtle Delay, Boost, Reverb, etc. No problem, I have saved the tone I like as a Preset with the name of the song as the name of the preset. During this song there is a lead guitar section where my band-mate plays the lead and I play the Flanger rhythm part under that lead. After the lead section we obviously both revert to the tones we were playing during the intro and verses. If I was running an external Flanger stompbox I would simply stomp it on during the Flanger sections and stomp it back off when that section was done, but I DON'T WANT TO use external stompboxes - I REALLY LIKE THE ON-BOARD GMD 40 EFFECTS AND WANT TO USE THEM RELIABLY AND PROLIFICALLY DURING A GIVEN SHOW. I feel as though the GMD 40 *should* be able to accomplish this basic aspect of playing live, but I am afraid after experimenting quite a bit it seems like it cannot. So what is the issue? If I save my song preset with the Flanger modulation "On" and dialed in with both the Rate and Intensity levels set where I want them, then when I go to the song while playing live I will find that the Flanger is engaged when I select the song from my Presets. Duh, obviously. This is not ideal because I don't want to have to turn the Flanger OFF upon selecting that song while playing live. When I pick the song I want it to be READY for the first sections of the song - period. So I first save the song with my Flanger settings the way I want them, and then I turn the Modulation back off and save it again. Guess what? The Flanger Rate that I like is still there, but the Flanger Intensity setting has gone to a level of ZERO. This sucks. yes, I know you will probably tell me, "get an expression pedal, set it up to one of the 2 controls on the FSM-432, and then when you flip the Modulation ON for the Flanger section you will also just hop on the expression pedal and quickly bring it up to the Intensity that you like" or you will tell me "just use your finger on the iPad and quickly dial in what you want for that section". OK, I get these responses, but they suck in multiple ways, as follows:

Suck factor #1 - the FSM-432 only has a total of 2 Control outputs. I already have both the outputs occupied, one with ON/OFF for Delay; the other with ON/OFF for Modulation. This is a serious limitation. The FSM-432 would be much better served to have no less than 8 Control outputs so that people can set up Control preferences without having to make the "least bad choice"; for instance, I would like to have my Boost ON/OFF assigned to one of the Controls, but... I would also like to Reverb ON/OFF assigned to on of the Controls, but... 2 Control outputs is simply not enough to cover very basic practical bases for live situations.
Suck factor #2 - I have very specific settings that I want for both Rate and Intensity of the Flanger effect for this song. I don't want to try and get half-ass-close with an expression pedal several measures into the section or, worse, with my finger on an iPad while performing. One EXTREMELY cool thing about the GMD 40 in the first place is that tone precision that is available and STORABLE as a preset for future use - why have a precision-capable amp and a sloppy way of controlling it while performing live? It's like steering a race car with your tongue.
Suck factor #3 - IPad optics. I am not a big fan of iPads on mic stands when performing live. I don't want to be hypocritical since I do it every darn gig, but there is big difference between using an iPad as a set list that you reference innocuously during a gig and having your face buried in it throughout a gig. Nothing says "crappy show!" louder than watching musicians "performing" with their eyes on their iPads 90% of the time. I walk out of those shows. There is no connection. I don't care if a band plays technically and mechanically perfectly; if they don't connect, the show sucks. And a performer getting their screen time is the fastest way to disconnect with their audience. SO, the more tweaks I can do innocuously with my foot and the less time I spend with my finger on a iPad trying to tweak amp settings the better. That tweaking should have already happened in my studio and the results of that tweaking should be STORABLE and EASILY RECALLABLE while performing live.
Suck factor #4 - IPad practicality. Can we agree that when playing guitar, both hands are typically occupied? Yes? OK, thanks. Tweaking an iPad AT ALL with my finger during a show is only feasible at certain times unless I want to grow a third arm/hand. Here's to stem cell research acceleration...
Suck factor #5 - You might say, "well that song really needs 2 presets; one with the Modulation ON and one with it OFF". My reply, "Really??" I mean, if I went that route I could literally have 2 to maybe even 4 presets PER SONG. So for a given 60-song night I could have 150-200 presets, depending upon how many different tone flavors each song might have. That is just silly and I don't think anyone really wants to go down that rabbit hole. The FSM-432 doesn't even have a one-click way to hop to the next preset; instead, you have to know wher eyou are in your bank, and then flip to the next channel in the bank, or maybe have to switch banks and then switch to the next channel in the bank. Like going from preset 4 to preset 5 is NOT a single click. To make this approach simple (despite there being a TON of presets) the FSM-432 should have a NEXT PRESET button. One click and you are on the next preset.

So, the above is hellishly long-winded, but I make no apologies - I have spent a lot of time and money trying to figure out what direction to go. I am posting in the sincere hope that others who are fans of (or owners of) the GDM 40 will have figured out how to easily do what is eluding me.

In short, how on earth do you efficiently activate and deactivate your GDM 40 built-in effects on-the-fly while performing?

Dave

I’ve seen a few people setup the behringer fcb1010, with and without the uno chip upgrade for fuller control of all the effects. This gives 5 presets in the front row and 5 effect on/ offs in the back row. These midi boards go for pretty cheap now and the uno chip isn’t much. Someone in the Facebook H&K group posted how to set it up.

What I’m doing is adding my gm40 into my g system floor board control, with the grandmeister as one of the loops and the g system as the effects, because I also have a wireless, a rack tuner and a small pedal drawer in a 6 space rack. The effects from the g system are far better than the grandmeister and can be turned off in each present. Really any of the newer boards could control the presets, the helix, any of the better boss boards. Most of these add cables and need 4 cable method routing though.

I’m really thinking about building a black spirit based rack since it’s much lighter and doesn’t need a fan I could have it rack mounted in a 6 or 8 space rack and have some pedals at the back on a shelf behind it. I’m sure I could cut that down to a 6 space that would only need the foot switch, power cable and speaker cable.

The FSM 432 is novice at best for a controller. I would recommend you need a real midi foot controller.

I use the voodoo labs ground control. You can save in bank mode where you have on/off switches for all your effects and the ability to default them to ON or OFF when you select the patch. If it's a flange that you need to momentarily put on for a solo or something, you default that controller to off, and you can press it yourself to turn it on, and either push it again to shut it off or just push the main patch switch and it will be off again.

That controller is a toy, you are doing real stuff. Get a better controller. Voodoo labs ground control. That's what I use, and that is what YOU need.

Best wishes, love my 36, nothing but ground control and amp and everything sounds great!

GM36 owner here. I am too unhappy with the control change limitations of the GM amp series. I would like to mention a very old piece of equipment that I have, namely, the Yamaha DG Stomp, where the user is able to control up to 8 parameters of his choice per each individual preset with one expression pedal, and most importantly, a user definable range for fx level, rate, etc. so instead of trying to match a certain minimum or maximum level of a parameter, those could be preset so you get exactly what you want each time you rock the expression pedal. I wish H&K, as sophisticated and forward-thinking amp manufacturers as they are, had put more thought into a working implementation of control change messages. Instead they did nothing in that respect moving from the 36 to the D40. Real shame I think, as what they have does not benefit or facilitate the live use of their product. Using other Midi controllers is ok, but why make a proprietary H&K controller so crippled in that very important aspect?

Dave--

GM40 owner here.  I agree you either need the voodoo ground controller or to simplify.

One thing you could do is to modify suck factor#5.  My needs are simpler, for sure, but I approach my needs by using the FSM 432 in that manner.  While, yes, you'd have to program one for FX on and one for FX off, you could approach it as a single bank of four for a single song, simply increment the bank.  Since there are 132? available banks, that will cover your set.  This is basically how I'm setting my rig for the night.

In essence, this is what a voodoo ground controller would get you.

In this way, you could get away from iPad control unless you need to get in on the fly and modify.  I wish the H&K was more sophisticated, but I can operate this way ok. I use the H&K app simply for pre-programming sounds and placing them in the order I want them, then downloading that to the rig.

Steve

I can see where the difficulties are coming in here but I have been recommending SolidWalnut's advice for years now.  With that many voices available to store I always make up sets of four and use them as voices for one song.  When you get things set up this way it is surprising how many of them will be perfectly suitable for use as a block of four for a number of songs.  With the app available for management it becomes easy to set up different "Set List" collections and to upload them before a particular gig.

There is also the method of using the FSM432's Control sockets for extension basic footswitches which may help.  These can be programmed to act as individual switches for a couple of your functions.  This is covered in the FSM432 manual in section 2.6 Page 3.

While there’s always some kind of workaround, I wonder if it’s really that hard for H&K to implement a storable minimum/maximum for each Control Change parameter which can be different for every preset? I’ve mentioned my experience with the ancient DG Stomp, where you could do that. Furthermore, one could change several different parameters with one sweep of the expression pedal, like lower the reverb mix while simultaneously increasing delay mix, etc, etc. I see the same possibilities in my Nemesis delay: all the available parameters are freely adjustable and storable on a preset to preset basis. What use is Volume control, if after a fade out you cannot return exactly to the preset level for the current song? Such randomness could be ok in a blues band scenario, but what about playing a tightly and neatly arranged setlist where every sound has to occupy a predefined “spot” in the arrangement, and not deviate wildly just because your foot is not surgically precise on the pedal?

That's a great thought Silkman. I can see your description of the min/max setting for each parameter could be very useful for your setup. One thing to bear in mind is that the FSM432 is not the holder of the settings info. All presets and parameter values are only stored on the amp. The FSM432 is only a messenger which simply tells the amp what changes you have decided to make by passing on messages relevant to a voice selection or a parameter and level. The amp implements them internally. Sliding up and down a number of parameters in response to the foot pedal sweep may send a long slow stream of messages with perhaps a delayed response time.

I have to say that the processors used in the GM36 are maybe a bit long in the tooth nowadays (ATMega168-PA master and ATMega88-PA slave) and the amount of code they can accommodate is restricted so it may be that they have just not got the programming room to implement more features which may need it, though this one would not seem to require any big change in coding. I know from my own Marshall foot controller designs that Arduinos make great bases to design projects to do things like this though the number of H&K control parameters is way beyond anything my Marshalls require.

I'm certainly no MIDI aficionado so I don't know its usage intimately though I understand the principles and the hardware. With MIDI's ability to "throughput" data is it not possible to daisy chain controllers in some way or would this cause a conflict?

Hi,
I have stumbled on this thread again, and as it has been one of the top two issues I have with GMD40, and as it's one that I have addressed recently I thought I'd follow up...

@dave-irvine - I agree with I think all of your points and like some of the people who have replied I think the answer is a more capable MIDI controller. The one I have chosen is the Morningstar MC8 ....

https://www.morningstarfx.com/mc8-midi-controller

It has 8 buttons that can each trigger presets or control messages by different actions (up to 6 different actions, although I'm not sure all of them are useful actions). Each button can have text assigned to it (eg song name or control action - like turning on an effect). You can switch easily to different pages (and banks) to access different controls.

My first page is 8 different presets corresponding to 4 backing configurations, each with their respective lead presets. Mostly different gain levels with EQ tweaks and in some cases reverb/delay. I have used a page switch to expose direct access to FX, but also to switch between power-soak settings. The reason for that is related to the other top issue I referred to above. I have many presets and find it very difficult to maintain the correct relative volume between them, especially as the band is not consistent with their volume level.

I also use intend to use them to switch the Source Audio MIDI controlled EQ/volume pedal in the send/return loop, but sadly my GMD40 went pop for the second time shortly after I configured the MC8. And THAT is probably the 3rd issue I have with the GMD40 - unreliability. But I'll save that rant for another time.

Anyhow - in the past few weeks has anyone found any clever solutions to these issues?