The Hughes & Kettner User Forum

Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.
The Hughes & Kettner User Forum

The Unofficial guitar amp and cabinets forum for users of Hughes and Kettner products. We are not affiliated with Hughes and Kettner!!


2 posters

    Master Volume around 70%

    yoMuzicMan
    yoMuzicMan


    Posts : 61
    Join date : 2014-05-11
    Location : Colorado

    Master Volume around 70% Empty Master Volume around 70%

    Post by yoMuzicMan Sun Mar 12, 2023 3:12 pm

    I plan on using my GMD40 for live shows without a cabinet and with the Redbox direct into a PA. And I think the tone gets creamy when the master volume is at around 70%. So I plan to run it at this level all night long.

    Am I correct in assuming the amp can take this punishment? I understand I'll reduce the life of the tubes which I'm not concerned about (I'll have spares handy). I just don't want to hurt the amp.

    Comments?
    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1788
    Join date : 2015-01-28
    Age : 72
    Location : Southern England

    Master Volume around 70% Empty Re: Master Volume around 70%

    Post by bordonbert Thu Mar 16, 2023 1:56 am

    Yes the amp will take that punishment all night long. People worry because the top of the enclosure gets hot to the hand. Hot to the hand as in, just short of actual pain, is only around 45-50degC. If you can keep your hand on the top for a few seconds before you have to take it off then you are running at about that. Components will live a long long time at those temperatures - despite what the internet will tell you.

    I always check my estimating from the actual datasheets and the known theory surrounding them. For example, those nasty electrolytics which the internet tells you you need to change out every couple of years have working life projections of many thousands of hours in use with 8,000hrs being a reasonably common starting figure. For standard spec caps that is usually specified at 85degC. Arrhenius Law tells us that their lifetime will double for every 10degC they work at below that. So if you can keep the temperature down to 55degC for most of their working life, that is 3x10degC below 85degC, you have increased their lifespan by 2x2x2 which is 8x. And for better quality electrolytics to military spec they are specified at 105degC which increases it even more. But the internet tells you to swap out your major caps from between 6months to 2 years "just in case". None of that swap out frenzy makes sense to engineers.

    Let me ask you where did you learn that valves wear out more quickly through heavier (louder) use? This is really a common internet myth. Yes valves will wear out but it isn't just high levels of signal which do that. It is more abuse and pushing them beyond their stated maximums in many areas. Using them the way we do is not particularly stressful for a valve. Preamp valves especially live for many many years before eventually going soft. I have some in my 1968 Marshall SL100 which are still originals and working fine. I know they are genuine originals because I have owned it since 1969. The real expertise in valve knowledge without the surrounding hype was around the 40s/50s/60s. That's when books like the Radiotronics and Mullard Handbooks were in print. None of them would see any need to swap out valves in such short periods. The class of valve which we use in our amps is a "radio receiving" type. These were the valve which were lying around and cheap to buy when the first guitar amps were designed. There is nothing special about them in the way we use them, they were just convenient and to hand. They are not quickly "worn out" by using them at high volumes. Much more damage is done by simply using the common design of Standby, (fortunately not the H&K circuit), and this is well documented.

    Don't take my word for it, I know my pushing this sort of info is not liked by most guitarists. They prefer to live in a state of awe towards their guru tech who knows everything there is to know about guitar amps. We-e-e-ell, that's a bit of a stretch in reality. Here is a link to an old school genuine expert in valve technology. The Valve Wizard His site will have anything you would want to know about valves. It is highly technical for the most part, much more than a guitarist would need, but it has some really interesting reading if you scan. Take a look at his page on "Power And Standby Switches" to see what sort of thing really kills valves. And most experts are completely in denial about the use of the Standby though the theory behind it is well documented and sound, yet I still have to be made aware by any of them what process is the cause of this short term valve death in normal use!


    _________________
    Newcastle Brown, can sure smack you down
    You take a greasy wh*re, and a rollin' dance floor
    You know you're jailhouse bound!

    Rock On Humble Pie
    yoMuzicMan
    yoMuzicMan


    Posts : 61
    Join date : 2014-05-11
    Location : Colorado

    Master Volume around 70% Empty Re: Master Volume around 70%

    Post by yoMuzicMan Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:20 am

    I appreciate all of the info you shared regarding my question. I also asked H&K support the same question trying to find similar answers, and I did. They also state the amp can take it. Smile

    I love this amp at a high master volume level. I used to own the GM36 and am certain I never pushed the master past 50% because I used it with a 2x12 cabinet. I wanted to use its cab sim output, but never like that sound. Regardless of how I used the GM36, I could never get rid of a harsh, brittle sound. Now that I'm using the GMD40 without a cabinet, and just using the built in RedBox (large vintage setting), the sound is creamy. Love it!

    Again, thanks for your reply.



    bordonbert likes this post

    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1788
    Join date : 2015-01-28
    Age : 72
    Location : Southern England

    Master Volume around 70% Empty Re: Master Volume around 70%

    Post by bordonbert Thu Mar 16, 2023 10:42 am

    That's exactly the same experience of my own GM36. It has been said by many before us too. You have to get the speaker selection absolutely spot on as the GM36 seems to be really sensitive to its speakers and the brittle top end is just the symptom you get. I quickly ruled out V30s and moved on to G12 Greenbacks which were a step up. But still no cigar. I even tried it with a set of original 1960s G12H in my Marshall cab. It again was subtly better but still rough and fatiguing over time for the 1960/70s classic rock I play. I just couldn't find a speaker which smoothed out the harshness. In the end I gave up and went back to my Marshall/Vox/Fender mainstream route.

    I held back from the GM40 when it came out because I wasn't convinced that it would be significantly different. Others have said the same as yourself, that it sounds much more refined than its older brother. It would be an expensive investment for me though, and I can still have my moments with the GM36 which does some things really well. Anyway, you get on and push that GM40 hard, it can certainly take it. And if it gets too hot to comfortably touch on the top and you begin to worry, just puit your hand underneath to the circuitry compartment and see how cool that remains. The upper case is a heatsink drawing the heat out to the outside air. If you look back to the forum's heyday, we used to come up with all sorts of Heaqth-Robinson gadgets to keep it cool. You could do that if you are a DIYer in need of a project. Here is how I approached it: GM36 Fan Cooling Base Unit


    _________________
    Newcastle Brown, can sure smack you down
    You take a greasy wh*re, and a rollin' dance floor
    You know you're jailhouse bound!

    Rock On Humble Pie
    yoMuzicMan
    yoMuzicMan


    Posts : 61
    Join date : 2014-05-11
    Location : Colorado

    Master Volume around 70% Empty Re: Master Volume around 70%

    Post by yoMuzicMan Thu Mar 16, 2023 11:09 am

    Nice fan solution for keeping the amp cool. I may try that if I ever end up playing somewhere already warm or outdoors to help keep it cooler. For now, I just play at home or a couple of venues with comfortable temps.

    When I got the GMD40, I was worried it would have the same harshness as the GM36. My plan was to spend another $600 on the Two Notes Captor X and drive it with all 40 watts of the speaker output from the GMD40. But as it turns out, the RedBox AE output on the GMD40 delivers what I need. It's not perfect, but it's darn good.

    bordonbert likes this post


    Sponsored content


    Master Volume around 70% Empty Re: Master Volume around 70%

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Mon Apr 29, 2024 7:01 am