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    GM36 Store switch LED lights without being touched and amp goes quiet.

    GtrPat
    GtrPat


    Posts : 3
    Join date : 2018-07-19

    GM36 Store switch LED lights without being touched and amp goes quiet. Empty GM36 Store switch LED lights without being touched and amp goes quiet.

    Post by GtrPat Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:28 pm

    I love this amp. Twice today my GM36 "Store" LED came on without being touched and the amp went quiet. Pushing switches and making adjustments had no impact on this condition. shutting the amp off and on brought it back to life. I use this amp frequently for shows and am concerned that I may be headed for reliability issue.

    The amp also has recently been shutting the output off and lighting the speaker kill switch once or twice per show. Pressing the speaker kill switch does not bring the audio back. Again shutting the amp off and on restores operation. It did this about a year ago and I replaced the EL84s. It worked fine for quite a while before starting to do this again. So I replaced the EL84s yesterday (Apex matched quad) and now when testing it before our next show this "Store" LED issue pops up.


    Anyone have a similar experience? Any thoughts on a cause or what this indicates? And more importantly is there a solution that I might perform myself? I know which end of the soldering iron not to grab.


    Thanks,
    Pat
    RedCreep
    RedCreep


    Posts : 2
    Join date : 2018-06-23

    GM36 Store switch LED lights without being touched and amp goes quiet. Empty GM36 Store switch LED lights without being touched and amp goes quiet

    Post by RedCreep Wed Aug 29, 2018 2:46 pm

    Hi Pat,

    I'm having the exact same problem with my GM40. Just at random moments the store LED comes on, everything is silent and completely locked. It requires a power toggle to reset.
    It happened a few times yesterday during our rehearsal; very annoying!

    Did you get your problem solved and if yes, how?

    I just performed a factory restore and up till now the problem has not re-appeared but that is only 30 minutes or so.

    It might have to do something with our name ....

    Kind regards,

    Pat
    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1929
    Join date : 2015-01-28
    Age : 73
    Location : Southern England

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    Post by bordonbert Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:42 pm

    The GM36 is the only version whose schematic has escaped into the wild I am afraid but there is virtually the same setup in areas like this as far as we know at the moment.  The Store and Fx Access LEDs are on unique lines from the microcontroller and the Store and Fx Access switches share a single line.  They seem to simply pull the voltage on the line down to different levels which the controller then responds to.  The three lines are not involved in any way with any other area other than telling the microcontroller what you want it to do and displaying the acknowledgement.  If the Store switch, Fx Access switch and the LEDs work as they should in their normal usage that should show that they are ok.  Does the Store/Fx Access system work as it should under normal conditions?

    The two phases of your problem as you describe could be linked at least with one causing the other.  Your speaker kill coming on could definitely have been caused by the output valves so a new set would not have hurt at all.  Let's assume that has now been cured with the valve replacement.  It is possible that during that "episode" the programming could have been corrupted.  I would start by doing as Pat has done, perform a factory reset on the whole amp.  I'm sure you already know this but make sure that you have backed up your custom voice patches first!  The reset will wipe any custom voices you have created and replace them with the factory versions.  If this does not stop the problem then we have to assume it is a hardware issue and, if that is in the microcontroller board, it can only be fixed by qualified service personnel with access to the parts which you would not have.  If the amp is still under warranty then it should be covered under that.  That is as long as you have not invalidated the warranty by removing the sides or base cover incorrectly?  If not it could be a fairly expensive fix I'm afraid.

    Try a factory reset first and see if that solves the problem.  If it is currently happening pretty regularly you should know pretty quickly whether you have sorted it.


    _________________
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    RedCreep
    RedCreep


    Posts : 2
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    GM36 Store switch LED lights without being touched and amp goes quiet. Empty gm36-store-switch-led-lights-without-being-touched-and-amp-goes-quiet

    Post by RedCreep Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:26 pm

    Just to give some feedback.

    I'm still skeptical but after I gave my GM40 a 'factory restore' the problem has not re-occurred. This includes a full gig (fortunately) and a couple of evenings of playing and leaving the amp on for hours.

    Fingers crossed .....

    The whole process of back-up, factory restore and re-load presets is very straightforward and fast.
    I did loose my 'global' settings but that was a quick fix.
    I'm using midi channel 1 exclusively for the GM40 while using omni for the intellifex in the effects-loop. Both expression pedals on my midiboard (ART X-15) transmit at channel 2 exclusively.
    Not using any continuous controls on the GM40, just channel switching and on/off. I miss the range-ability on continuous controls on the GM40.
    After the factory restore the GM40 was reset to midi-omni.

    Thanks for the reply.

    I would be interested to know where to get the GM36 schematic. When I google for schematic GM36 I get the lay-out of a bus ! And, can you believe it, they have a GM40 model as well!

    Pat

    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1929
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    Post by bordonbert Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:48 pm

    Glad it's stabilised Pat.  A factory reset is a useful thing for any unit with pre-programmed responses like the GM40.  It is asking a lot for computer style sections to work in close proximity to 400V electronics without the occasional glitch.

    I'm afraid we have to work within the parameters of not upsetting H&K in our posts.  While we are supporting their products as best we can we have built up a fair bit of goodwill which gets us some very useful information and advice regarding the technical aspects.  We can't give out any details of H&K schematics in our public posts, they are very protective of them as you can imagine.  They aren't a mass producer like Fender or Marshall who almost openly offer the schematics to their playing fan base.  The best I can say is that some of them are available on different forums.

    When you say "range-ability" do you mean the "useful usable range" of those controls in the audible sense?  If so I would guess you would include the basic tone controls in that.  Many of us feel the same.  I have found that the more you sort out your speaker choices and get some lower end back into the system right up to the mids, the more that aspect opens up.  I can confirm that in theory there is nothing wrong with the tone control setup at all.  Have a search for the thread where I set up Spice models of each stage of the amplifier and looked into how they do what they do.  The curves are still available on my hosting site.  The tone controls got an absolutely clean bill of health.  I just think that in an amp with virtually no bottom end being produced at all the Bass control is going to make precious little difference even though it might give a full range of boost down there.  After all 10 x 0 is  scratch  errrmm  bom   still 0.


    _________________
    Newcastle Brown, can sure smack you down
    You take a greasy wh*re, and a rollin' dance floor
    You know you're jailhouse bound!

    Rock On Humble Pie
    tomcookie
    tomcookie


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    Post by tomcookie Tue Jun 22, 2021 11:21 am

    Hello!
    Sorry to reply to such an old thread but I experience the same problem for almost two years.
    I did contact the support from HK but they say they don't know about my problem.
    Did you guys solve the problem?
    I can't use my amp as it's not reliable and I don't want to sell it like this.
    I was satisfied with the amp but now it's just useless and I'd rather use it as a door stopper.  Crying or Very sad  Crying or Very sad

    EDIT: I did restore the amp to factory default several times with no success.
    bordonbert
    bordonbert


    Posts : 1929
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    Post by bordonbert Fri Jun 25, 2021 7:21 am

    Hi Tom.  We never got any further with this problem I'm afraid.  As I described above, the Store and Fx Access switching is on a single combined line which sits at 5V through a 10k resistor.  When the switches are engaged they put a resistor in series with that to ground.  This pulls the 5V line down to a lower level.  The resistors are different values thus pulling the line to different levels for each of them, and for both as well.  The microprocessor has ADCs in it which can differentiate these levels and figure out what they mean, Store/Access/Both.  The programming then takes care of whatever has been requested.  The LEDs are on separate lines controlled directly by the microprocessor as part of its programming.

    The only things that could be manually checked are the 5V level on the line and its reliability, the action of the switches to produce the correct voltages (I'll list them below), the integrity of the connections through the mainboard to the microprocessor board.  Beyond that it is down to the processor and that is not serviceable other than a factory default reset which you have tried without a result.

    The voltages you should see are as follows:  No switches engaged 5V; Store engaged 3.44V;  Fx Access engaged 2.5V;  Both engaged 0V.  This can be measured on one of the wiper terminals of the Store switch, (the other wiper sits at 0V permanently so it is easy to see which).

    I give you this info hoping that will maybe help a tech to start fault finding.  If you are planning on doing anything yourself you must have experience of working with high (LETHAL) voltages inside very compact equipment and decent equipment to work with.  This is NOT a general Marshall/Fender type of amp design, it is much more complex.  What are you planning to do with the amp in terms of its repair?


    _________________
    Newcastle Brown, can sure smack you down
    You take a greasy wh*re, and a rollin' dance floor
    You know you're jailhouse bound!

    Rock On Humble Pie
    tomcookie
    tomcookie


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    Post by tomcookie Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:26 am

    Hello Bordonbert,
    Thank you very much for your very detailed answer.
    I won't try anything by myself anyway. I'm not qualified for this.
    I played with the amp a couple of times last week and the problem occurred every time. In a rehearsal of 3 hours and a small concert (birthday party with no pressure), it happened just once and pretty early (in the first half-hour). So for the concert, I switched on the amp an hour before we played so it could "bug" before the show. Bingo, it did bug 15 or 20 minutes after being on (on standby) and it worked fine during the whole show.
    That makes me think of a problem with something getting warmer and once it is hot enough, it's ok. It could be caused by a small resistance value change due to temperature change.
    It looks like the state of the amp at this moment is somehow a "protection state" like there's a software error and the processor freaks out and stops everything. But it could be the inverse, some tube or transformer has a wrong value, and the processor shut down the amp to protect the transformer.
    Then, the store light may be a kind of diagnostic signal like "tube problem" or "software error".

    I wonder if the way the processor interacts with the "analog" part of the amp allows it to shut down the amp like this.

    I'll try to ask the french distributor about this.
    I'm disappointed with HK support on this one. I know at least two other cases from the internet and HK exchanged one amp in warranty with the same problem according to the user I get in touch with.
    bordonbert
    bordonbert


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    Post by bordonbert Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:08 am

    This has been a very strange problem right from the start.  You have done some good diagnostic work there but I think you are drawing some wrong conclusions from what you found.

    Your findings definitely suggest there may be a time related side to the problem and that is worth investigating.  Heat is an obvious factor to consider, as is component ageing.  However, it is very unlikely that a modern resistor will change its value so much that it would cause things to trigger like this.  A carbon composition resistor worshipped by those "velvet eared" gurus for their superior vintage tone Mad WILL eventually do that, but modern metal types will not.  Modern resistors outperform these bits of old rubbish in every way including sound.  If you really want that "softer warm" tone you can design it in with modern circuitry.  In good design you set things up to be as precise as possible but also as uncritical as is possible, in other words you leave as wide a margin for error and drift as the circuit will tolerate, and you use components that are in the middle of as wide a range of acceptable action as possible too.  With the exception of the valves the quality of components in the H&K amps is high as is the build quality.  The use of Chinese valves is a deliberate choice by H&K to sensibly keep sales prices down as they are aware that people generally swap them out at the first opportunity for their own particular magic models regardless of what was originally put in.  There should be no problem with this occurring due to thermal drift.

    Again a common myth is that "Eastern" PCB manufacture is not as good as our own.  That is so much hogwash.  It depends, as it does everywhere, on the particular company who is contracted to make them and the price paid.  There are poor quality ones out there, if you want to pay peanuts you will get corners cut by monkeys.  Most mainstream manufacturers are at least as high quality as anything in the West, often better.  For example, how many eastern made mobile phones do you see being tossed because of their cheap eastern PCB problems?

    People incorrectly believe that, because the top of the amp gets hot to the hand that means the interior must be under thermal stress too.  Most components are perfectly happy to work at a temperature which would burn your hand.  Yes, their lifespan is reduced at higher temperatures but this needs to be seen in perspective.  Reducing an electrolytic's 50,000 hours lifespan to 30,000 hours say is not a great loss in real terms.  We did some research into this here on the forum a long while back to look into that claim.  One member used a thermal gun thermometer to accurately measure internal temperatures through the vents so the amp stayed closed as in normal use.  The core of the amp, the lower undersection carrying all the PCBs, stays very cool even under high output drive.  And yes, the power soak resistors are in there but, if you do the maths correctly, you will find the maximum amount of heat they could be required to dissipate is not high at all and it does make no difference to the temperature inside in practice.  The top section which we can see into heats up, but the case is designed to conduct the heat upwards and outwards acting as a heatsink.  The vast majority of the heat is produced by the valve bodies and will of course rise in that space.  They are out of the bottom section in the heatsinked upper cavity so little is carried downwards to affect the other circuitry.  Conduction heatsinking like this is a much better more efficient approach than using an insulating wooden box with a few slots or holes punched into a backplate which you hope gives some air convection and generally doesn't.  Internal temperature is NOT an issue with the H&K amps.  Time has proven that, as heat related failures are not occurring even as frequently as in other mainstream amps out there.

    It is conceivable that one of the electrolytic capacitors could have aged prematurely though it is not likely.  All components can conceivably have faulty items at manufacture but, to stress again, their reputation is given by those who know nothing of how they really work and how they are accurately specified.  The symptoms do not really point to this as a way of locking up the amp until an immediate restart fixes it.  Drifting trigger voltages would more likely cause a function on the amp to activate but would leave it in a state where it would still respond to other controls in some way.

    It is possible that you have an intermittent connection at one of the PCB cable sockets.  This would only need to be split then remade to correct it.  The connectors used are high grade types commonly used in other areas of electronics requiring high reliability without any issues.  I do not think the connectors themselves would be the problem but it is easy for a tech to try.

    It is also possible that you have a cracked solder joint, though again not likely and I will point out that this does not happen anywhere near as often as "internet common knowledge" will tell you.  PCBs ARE THE DEVIL'S OWN WORK is the current mantra with guitar gurus and their acolytes.  It is absolute and total bullshit.  As an electronic engineer of many years experience I can tell you they are more reliable in use, more accurately designable for better sound and more consistent in that than any hand built rat's nest.  Many techs hate them because they do not generate as much money and kudos as working on that "mountain spring crystal clear top, elfin bell middle and grunting bottom" pile of spaghetti which anyone could service with a cobbler's hammer, an electrician's screwdriver and a plumbers gas torch.  With good equipment they are more logical and easier to work on, if you know what you are doing!

    I do think the only thing you can do is to give this amp to a tech and get him to try to trigger the fault then see what state the various lines and components are in.  Other than that you are left with changing out PCBs one by one until the problem goes away.  With surface mount components the idea of hand repairing a board is pretty much a losing game, they are far too awkward to easily work on.  That is one downside of owning a modern design amp I'm afraid.  It is possible to repair, I do it myself in some of my own builds, but it is much more time consuming and less reliable than manually working with through hole components is.

    My gut tells me this should be a problem in the digital uProcessor area on that board.  As I said, I can always be wrong on this but for me the locking up suggests the digital circuitry being thrown into a state which is never seen in normal use where it cannot recover.  The only way to test any of this would be to set up the amp with the PCBs exposed and trigger the fault then to explore the PCBs looking for something unusual I'm afraid.  The oddity here is the locking up of the system.  A voltage drifting to the point of incorrectly triggering the amp in a natural designed fashion would not cause that.  I suspect this is a hard fault somewhere in the digital circuitry rather than components in the supporting or analogue circuitry going out of spec.  Though, as I said, I could always be wrong on that score of course.  We need someone to take it on with that in mind.


    _________________
    Newcastle Brown, can sure smack you down
    You take a greasy wh*re, and a rollin' dance floor
    You know you're jailhouse bound!

    Rock On Humble Pie
    tomcookie
    tomcookie


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    Post by tomcookie Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:21 am

    Thank you for your answer. If it does not repair my amp, it's really interesting and fun :-). Thank you for sharing your great knowledge. I studied electronics at university and loved it but forgot most of it by not using it.
    I'll definitely try to find a tech for help.

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